CBD & South East Light Rail

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Swift
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

If memory serves, the 438 from Chiswick went under the Opera House steps in the 1990s.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

The Sydney Explorer went inside and for a while evening 324/5 services were extended from CQ into the OH, via Albert and Macquarie Sts.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Another excellent cab video from a former Melbourne tram driver who posts on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL0_TMl3960

What he calls a fast trip is about 2 minutes under timetable, still not very fast but good driving skills nonetheless. Traffic light priority still needs tuning but slowly getting there. Three thoughts from this film:

1. Definitely the wrong sort of trams for Sydney. They need to be proper (swivelling) bogie trams. You can see the dynamic deficiencies as it hits any sort of curve. This slows them down and will also cost them dearly in track maintenance in the long term.

1. Trams are too long, which contributes to the unwieldiness, especially pulling out of curves. A maximum 45 metre single unit would have been better for Sydney. Yes I know capacity will go down and frequency would have to be increased to compensate, but that's not a bad thing.

3. The speed limit along George St should be increased to 30 km/h. Still just as safe and it will improve the running time.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by STMPainter2018 »

The third option still has chance of happening I believe or at least it's the most feasible one of your demands. There is a scenario where they could run a few off peak services with single section Citadis trams and leave coupled ones for peak hours but I don't think they'll ever run uncoupled. And once again I OBJECT to this statement that the Citadis X05 trams are the wrong trams for Sydney! The fixed truck issue is a problem on curves I get that but given very few modern systems use swivelling bogie trams nowadays, this is not just a problem for Sydney. Hell I would argue it's more of a problem for Melbourne given their very tight curves across the network; we only have a couple of sharp turns. But apart from that issue, I see nothing wrong with these trams, they ride well, they can accelerate very fast when allowed and they're more comfortable to ride in than the Urbos trams which are already starting to fall apart. Also these Citadis models actually look very sexy imo which is amazing considering French trams generally have a "beauty bypass".
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by gascoyne »

What's the knocking sound which is audible in the cab most of the way along High St?
It starts at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL0_TMl3960&t=110s and ends at the UNSW stop.
It sounds like a wheel flat, like those made famous by Tangara emergency brake applications.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

STMPainter2018 wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:44 pm we only have a couple of sharp turns.
That video highlights how many deviations from straight there are in fact along the line. It's not just typical curves and corners, it's splaying around island stops, small changes of direction etc. Fixed bogie trams are not tolerant of any of this. They're designed for grid layout cities where there are very long straight runs of track. Sydney is an undulating 18th century city where the street layout was determined by early land grants and topography and is very meandering as a result. It needs a tram with running gear that's tolerant of constant changes of direction and that's the proper bogie tram.

I have to say that originally I didn't mind the news that we were to get Citadis in Sydney. It was many years since I had ridden one and I assumed that they would have refined the design during the intervening years, so I was really shocked to find how badly they still ride. That was after having ridden, in the intervening years, many other trams in Europe and observed the improvements that other manufacturers had made in riding qualities since the early low floor trams of the 1990s. Even Skoda's early efforts at fixed bogie trams from the period 2000-2008 rode quite nicely (but they're typically confined to "straight line" routes) and CAFs don't have too bad a ride either, better than Citadis, but none of these fixed bogie types are as good as a proper swivelling bogie tram.

I think the problem with Alstom is that they've been so commercially successful that they've had no incentive to improve the design. When your product is being purchased by clients who are newbies to the world of trams - as typical with the new "light rail" systems that are Alstom's base market - and they don't know enough about the technology to be critical of such technical issues, sales are a walkover for you if you offer a good deal in general, notably the turnkey product where the infrastructure, trams (one that has the lowest manufacturing cost) and operation are provided in one ready-to-go package, an Alstom specialty. Ever noticed that, among the experienced established tram systems of Europe east of France, you see almost no Citadis trams? Alstom tried to break into that market but never succeeded.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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L2 and L3 closure 8 October to 11 October 2021
https://transportnsw.info/news/2021/l2- ... al-closure
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by marcnut1996 »

Pedestranisation of George Street between Bathurst Street and Goulburn Street was completed last week.
News from City of Sydney: https://news.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/ar ... akes-shape
Clover Moore's Linkedin post and video: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/clovermo ... 84384-iokt
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

marcnut1996 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:16 am Pedestranisation of George Street between Bathurst Street and Goulburn Street was completed last week.
News from City of Sydney: https://news.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/ar ... akes-shape
Clover Moore's Linkedin post and video: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/clovermo ... 84384-iokt
What a difference it makes not having that third track between the rails. I always found it ironic that the wireless section was intended to "beautify" the street, but between the harsh linear effect created by the six rails and the all the poles, it made it worse. The section further south also has overhead wires and still looks better. Then of course the APS fails regularly and we get all these constant "maintenance" shutdowns. Taken for a ride by the snake oil salesemen.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Clover needs to go but her voter base allows her carte blanche to keep up her self indulgent ways.
Democracy in action eh?
I used to have high regard for Clover before becoming a lifetime mayor got to her ego.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by bambul »

End to end journeys on both L2 and L3 are down to 31 minutes. Looks like the timetable change happened on Monday, but I haven't seen any official mention of it other than on the timetable. I wonder if this might be enough to shift public opinion on light rail and get some extensions or even brand new lines announced in the coming years. For a while it looked the light rail was the kiss of death and the government was even considering trackless trams as an alternative.

https://transportsydney.wordpress.com/2 ... announced/
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

The timetable might be down to 31 minutes, but a quick look at the actual performance on apps show many trips today taking 4 to 5 minutes longer. Even at the 35 minute table, trips were still taking longer.

I doubt it will make much difference to public opinion (at least locally). People are still considering the "bus vs tram" times without taking into account the different routes involved.

There were comments about "trams limited to 50 in areas where traffic could do 60"; actually I don't think there are many such locations as many vehicle limits have similarly been reduced.
Last edited by boronia on Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Merc1107 »

Is congestion on the road, and patronage high enough to be causing that much delay during lockdown?
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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Trams should not be affected by "congestion on the roads" because they are not part of it. No tracks are shared with normal traffic.

Patronage would not be affecting travel time. Even in non-lockdown times, there is little delay from passenger transfers; dwell times at stops s are way out of proportion to the need..
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

TfNSW would be pushing the journey time down to try to minimise the backlash from the interchanging that will caused by the restructured bus network. The timetable isn't on Transport info yet so I can't comment on it, but could do with another five minutes off the 31 minutes. There are impediments already built into the system though that make this difficult - the heavy rail operational mentality, the signalling, wrong sort of trams that contribute to the slowness (not only performance on bends but lower adhesion figure that affects acceleration and braking). Traffic light priority seems to have improved and with the excellent door ratio on the trams (the magic one double-leaf door per five linear metres), dwell times should be in the order of 10-20 seconds.

Given all the constraints, I guess we have to be grateful if they get it down to 30 minutes and let the government wear the electoral flack from the SE.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

What is it with the lingering at stops, an obvious ready solution?
I demand the self serve doors get reinstated. Saves A/C power and minimises door divers like on the trains.
Just keep em moving!
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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I suspect that some of the long dwells are timed to give the appearance of " priority" at the next set of lights, or to get coordinated crossings at intersections.

I have been attempting to get photos of trams in the Moore Park tunnel (from inside another tram, OK?) but in all my trips I have never seen this. Usually they manage to pass at South Dowling St. Inbound trams seem to be often held at MP stop to achieve this.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Swift wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:43 pm What is it with the lingering at stops, an obvious ready solution?
I demand the self serve doors get reinstated. Saves A/C power and minimises door divers like on the trains.
Just keep em moving!

The door operation was changed as a Covid measure since March last year. There are some restrictions/measures that truly will not go away until the pandemic is actually over for good or when NSW moves to living with Covid as an endemic disease (think of the nominated vaccination targets) - automatic tram doors and bus front seats being closed off to passengers would be a couple of examples of measures that haven’t moved since the pandemic began and really I’d like to see the end of both of these soon.

Even then, I predict for CSELR, it won’t be a return to full-on manual door opening as we had before Covid as CSELR has existed for far longer with automatic doors now - I think the most you can hope for is the directive that mandates drivers open all doors at stops no matter what time of day it is will be dropped and then it’ll become driver discretion (like the E Class in Melbourne, there most drivers open doors automatically but some drivers only release doors and make you press the button). Transdev would need to factor in how a change of door operation might affect the ability to run to timetable and any bearing on the journey times. I had seen a couple of months ago while out on a walk back when our exercise radius was 10km, at Circular Quay at late night some drivers left the doors in manual mode during the long dwell time rather than keeping them all open (patronage was basically dead at the time), so I wouldn’t write it off yet, all Transport needs to do is lift said mandate when it is safe to do so - and I hope so in time for the upcoming summer
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

I have noticed on many occasions, where there is some factor holding a tram at stops longer than normal dwell, drivers will close the doors, but leave them in manual opening mode until ready to move on. Some approaching passengers do see the flashing green button and use it to board.

Surprisingly, a lot of people still press the button anyway, so the habit is entrenched.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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Jurassic_Joke wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:20 am Transdev would need to factor in how a change of door operation might affect the ability to run to timetable and any bearing on the journey times.
The issue might be that if we return to passenger-controlled door opening, it may take a while for passengers to realise - and then they wait for a while for doors to open until they realise that they need to push the door. This could be 10 or 15 seconds after the doors are unlocked, and then they require another 20-30 seconds to load. So this may actually increase dwell times slightly until passengers become used to pushing the button.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

jpp42 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:43 pm
The issue might be that if we return to passenger-controlled door opening, it may take a while for passengers to realise - and then they wait for a while for doors to open until they realise that they need to push the door. This could be 10 or 15 seconds after the doors are unlocked, and then they require another 20-30 seconds to load. So this may actually increase dwell times slightly until passengers become used to pushing the button.
Or: they can be left behind.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by jpp42 »

I meant that as long as they open the doors before the driver locks them, that will extend the dwell time by another 15-20 seconds since at that point, the driver must allow them to open and the passengers to enter/exit, and then it takes time to close them again.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

jpp42 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:41 pm I meant that as long as they open the doors before the driver locks them, that will extend the dwell time by another 15-20 seconds since at that point, the driver must allow them to open and the passengers to enter/exit, and then it takes time to close them again.
If we talk about boarders only during this phase, that might add another ten seconds at most.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Call me sadistic (some will) but I'd derive great amusement watching them struggle with such a basic task. Getting left behind would be as good as any sketch comedy.

No trouble pushing buttons endlessly for an elevator to arrive that bit quicker or for the green person to appear quicker at a crossing, but to press a button when a flashing green ring beckons you to push it is apparently out of the realm of thought for many people.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

jpp42 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:41 pm I meant that as long as they open the doors before the driver locks them, that will extend the dwell time by another 15-20 seconds since at that point, the driver must allow them to open and the passengers to enter/exit, and then it takes time to close them again.
In the instances I have witnessed, the door has closed quickly after the passenger boarded (may the driver can do this) but the tram has continued its dwell; no additional delay involved.
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