CBD & South East Light Rail

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Merc1107
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Merc1107 »

20secs mightn't seem like much, but it can be the difference between being held up at intersections or having a relatively smooth run. While that is especially true of road traffic, I imagine it applies to the LR too, given it must share the road with cars, buses, pedestrians, etc.
Cazza
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Cazza »

But you don't need to increase the line of sight to improve safety (sure it may help) but as I said, without some changes to how the road is laid out, people aren't encouraged to slow down. I can guarantee even with an increase in the line of sight for this driver (https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/lig ... 53uv6.html), it still wouldn't have been enough for them to stop in time. This is likely because they were too distracted due to the near "motorway" nature of the road and didn't see the red light or the tram until it was too late. A simple rumble strip or curve will automatically slow drivers down and make them more alert.

Anyway, that's enough from me.
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jpp42
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by jpp42 »

There are plenty of tram systems worldwide that have boom gates for this kind of scenario where trams are in a fully dedicated reservation, but don't have them them in built-up areas with street running. I agree this is a perfect application for boom gates. I'm not quite sure I understand the bit about not stopping for cyclists or pedestrians - the cyclists and pedestrians won't have the same visibility problems as the trams and can (fairly) easily stop if a car is crossing their path.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Cazza »

I'm saying that because the boom gates would presumably go down every time a tram goes past, people will get used to looking out for and stopping when they see the boom gates (not necessarily the red light). So, if a pedestrian or cyclist was to cross without a tram triggering the boom gates, it is possible that a driver may not think anything of it because they aren't focused on the red light (as they are used to stopping for boom gates).

A car travelling at 60km/h will hitting a pedestrian or cyclist rather than a tram will obviously have so many more catastrophic and deadly consequences.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Glen »

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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

jpp42 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:42 pm I'm not quite sure I understand the bit about not stopping for cyclists or pedestrians - the cyclists and pedestrians won't have the same visibility problems as the trams and can (fairly) easily stop if a car is crossing their path.
That is if the pedestrians actually look before crossing. With the number of near misses that can be observed around the CBD, it is obviously a lost art.
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simonl
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by simonl »

In case anyone is interested, having used this along George St a number of times, I don't find it at all convenient. Journey times are similar to the buses it replaced, you have to walk further to the stop, frequency is more than an order of magnitude lower. It doesn't succeed on any rational criteria. Perhaps some of the problem is it is restricted to too low a speed and it would be much better if this did not apply, I would still question the return on investment.

Also, the comments that the 891 buses couldn't have been improved were complete nonsense, having seen them in operation before they were disbanded.

EDIT: And that doesn't include the degradation in the remaining buses in the CBD which the tram inflicted.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by grog »

Any thoughts on how George Street is for the people on the street compared to pre-light rail?
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

The CBD has wayyyy too many bus services going into it.
One potential positive the tram could have done but continues to fail in that also because of a wuss government.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

grog wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 pm Any thoughts on how George Street is for the people on the street compared to pre-light rail?
I'd say they appreciate the extra open space, and greater opportunity to get from one side to the other.
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simonl
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by simonl »

grog wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 pm Any thoughts on how George Street is for the people on the street compared to pre-light rail?
This point is valid, although it did and does have plenty of underpasses. The major problem with the street was the taxis and politically, one may not have been able to remove them without the light rail.

EDIT: Even though the point is valid, the degree is pretty small. The sacrifice to achieve this small improvement has not been at all worth it in my judgement. I didn't find it that hard to get across George St!
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

simonl wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 10:12 am In case anyone is interested, having used this along George St a number of times, I don't find it at all convenient. Journey times are similar to the buses it replaced, you have to walk further to the stop, frequency is more than an order of magnitude lower. It doesn't succeed on any rational criteria. Perhaps some of the problem is it is restricted to too low a speed and it would be much better if this did not apply, I would still question the return on investment.

Also, the comments that the 891 buses couldn't have been improved were complete nonsense, having seen them in operation before they were disbanded.

EDIT: And that doesn't include the degradation in the remaining buses in the CBD which the tram inflicted.
Much of this comment is disingenuous. Yes there are some small issues, like I think the stop spacing could have been more even and it is a little slow, but really no worse than the buses were on average. Four minute frequency compared to what with buses between CQ and Central? Lets be generous and say two minutes, that's potentially 120 bus passengers (or 220 if they're artics) in the same four minutes that the tram carries potentially 450 - so, much greater route capacity. Similar would apply to the 891 where the tram is carrying potentially 6,700 per hour to and from both ends of the campus combined (and it has a design capacity of 13,000 per hour per direction). How many did the 891 transport per hour? Observations by others earlier in this thread indicate that they weren't doing a brilliant job. One issue resolved by the trams was the queues and dwells, with the trams swallowing or disgorging huge crowds in moments through many doors. Finally. as Swift says, too many buses squeezing in and out of the very constrained CBD. They were overwhelming traffic light cycles, amongst other issues.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by simonl »

Err, no. Check the timetable, tonyp. Light rail shows 10-11 minute gaps in the evening today and the same on a weekday. Buses wouldn't see such large gaps normally. Regarding capacity, I wasn't commenting on that, I was commenting on the effect on actual users.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by rogf24 »

No. Look at the combined L2-L3 frequency on George St. Don't just look at one of the timetables and then say 10 minutes wait, there's plenty wrong with the light rail, but the frequency isn't that bad on the combined George St section (unless it's delayed).
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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

simonl wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:03 pm Err, no. Check the timetable, tonyp. Light rail shows 10-11 minute gaps in the evening today and the same on a weekday. Buses wouldn't see such large gaps normally. Regarding capacity, I wasn't commenting on that, I was commenting on the effect on actual users.
As at 21:00 Sunday, services are showing at 6-8 minute gaps along George St, so basically a 15 minute frequency on each line. There is no justification for having a higher frequency at this time.
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tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

simonl wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:03 pm Err, no. Check the timetable, tonyp. Light rail shows 10-11 minute gaps in the evening today and the same on a weekday. Buses wouldn't see such large gaps normally. Regarding capacity, I wasn't commenting on that, I was commenting on the effect on actual users.
Don't make the mistake of just looking at one timetable. Easy to do. L2 and L3 tts have to be read together between CQ and Moore Park. Not like the good old days of the paper tts where you could see both routes together!
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by moa999 »


simonl wrote:
grog wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 12:58 pm Any thoughts on how George Street is for the people on the street compared to pre-light rail?
This point is valid, although it did and does have plenty of underpasses!
Plenty ??
How many exactly.

George St used to get a 1 in my book. It's now a 9.

Personally I'd prefer the trams travelled at a higher speed - might actually force pedestrians to take notice (Darwin Award style)

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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 10:20 pm
simonl wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:03 pm Err, no. Check the timetable, tonyp. Light rail shows 10-11 minute gaps in the evening today and the same on a weekday. Buses wouldn't see such large gaps normally. Regarding capacity, I wasn't commenting on that, I was commenting on the effect on actual users.
Don't make the mistake of just looking at one timetable. Easy to do. L2 and L3 tts have to be read together between CQ and Moore Park. Not like the good old days of the paper tts where you could see both routes together!
I use Trip View app and set a search for CQ or Central to Moore Park; easy to monitor performance of both lines together.
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simonl
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by simonl »

rogf24 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 8:03 pm No. Look at the combined L2-L3 frequency on George St. Don't just look at one of the timetables and then say 10 minutes wait, there's plenty wrong with the light rail, but the frequency isn't that bad on the combined George St section (unless it's delayed).
I did do that. The timetable groups the two lines together.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by lunchbox »

SCHOOLIES CLIMATE DEMMO - FRIDAY 21.5.21.
(There don't seem to be any posts on this thread betwen 13 May & 23 May.)
I'd like to record what appears to be poor performance by the tram operator around midday on Friday 21 May 2021. Street closures were in place around Town Hall from about 11.30am, in readiness for a much-advertised schoolchildrens' climate protest at the Sydney Town Hall from midday till 3pm.
Trams had stopped crossing Druitt Street in either direction from 11.30, or maybe earlier. At 11.30, the Town Hall platform indicators were blank. PA announcements informed the crowd gathering on the platforms that trams were not running due to a "police operation". No information was provided regarding alternative public transport options, or if or when trams might commence running.
Most serious, it seems, is that trams were terminating from the south at Central-Chalmers Street. Why weren't they terminating at Town Hall, using the scissors crossover just south of Bathurst Street, which presumably was provided specifically for circumstances such as this? The tram operator would have had weeks of notice to make better arrangements for the public prior to and during this service disruption.

Adding to the grief for passengers, outbound bus services through Eddy Avenue had ceased running before 11.45, despite temporary signs attached to stop poles declaring that Eddy Avenue stops would not be served commencing at 12.30. (Crowds at the stops indicated that nobody was even aware of the temporary signs)
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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

With a demonstration "at the Town Hall" there is a good chance that the crowds would be expected to spill over into George St and the tram stops. Thus this block was out of bounds.

Notices about the short working were displayed at Kensington during the period, and presumably other stops; however these alternated with the next service signs, so some passengers may have missed them. The city stops usually have an entourage of Transdev-SLR staff most of the day, so presumably they would be advising passengers. A similar protest a couple of weeks ago trapped a few trams north of TH; again staff were on hand at Wynyard to direct passengers. With no defined time, I decided to walk up to Elizabeth St and catch a bus - I'd only gone a few metres when they started moving again.

With events like this, it is hard for police to predict when the area will be clear. Protesters don't just pack up and go home at a defined time.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by rogf24 »

simonl wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 6:34 am
rogf24 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 8:03 pm No. Look at the combined L2-L3 frequency on George St. Don't just look at one of the timetables and then say 10 minutes wait, there's plenty wrong with the light rail, but the frequency isn't that bad on the combined George St section (unless it's delayed).
I did do that. The timetable groups the two lines together.
It's not grouped.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Fleet Lists »

simonl.
Can you provide a URL of a grouped timetable?
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simonl
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by simonl »

Fleet Lists wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 7:44 pm simonl.
Can you provide a URL of a grouped timetable?
Sure: https://transportnsw.info/trip#/departu ... ive=200020

Although that shows every 5-6 minutes. Something isn't quite right, perhaps I stuffed something up when I looked at it previously and there was one of the trams delayed? Still, seems that there are a lot of delays for such a slow service.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Fleet Lists »

So actually not a timetable but a departure list which is grouped.
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