Opal Discussion and Observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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pgt
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

boxythingy wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:32 pm Would that be for bus stops? That would be the GPS fault of mobile bus readers in that case.
On two separate bus trips?

I'm pretty sure if I could validate by stop number (vs name) it would probably work, however one of the stops in question contains multiple stops (it's an interchange), and I think the summarisation that the system now does for some stops throws this stop matching logic out.
Yes I am aware putting in the stop number gives a single name, however I think that name is not what they are looking for in the validation test, and there is no way to otherwise select the stop name/number.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

https://transportnsw.info/news/2021/opa ... y#homepage
Opal fare changes from 5 July
Wednesday 02 June 2021

As of Monday 5 July, Opal fares will increase 1.5% in line with inflation expactations.

The $50 ($25 concession) weekly travel cap will remain in place, while the Senior/Pensioner Gold Opal day cap won’t change and will remain at $2.50 for all day travel, any day of the week.

The $2 transfer discount ($1 for concession) will remain when transferring from one form of public transport to another within one hour.

There is also no change to the fares for bus and light rail journeys up to 3km.

For more information see fares and payments.
Example fares from 5 July 2021
Journey Mode Peak Off Peak
Penrith to Circular Quay Train Current price: $6.89 From 5 July: $6.99
Current price: $4.82 From 5 July: $4.89
Bondi to North Sydney Bus/train Current price: $4.81 From 5 July: $4.86
Current price: $2.76 From 5 July: $2.80
Wollongong to Central Train Current price: $8.86 From 5 July: $8.99
Current price: $6.20 From 5 July: $6.29
Rouse Hill to Chatswood Metro Current price: $5.15 From 5 July: $5.23
Current price: $3.60 From 5 July: $3.66
Lidcombe to Padstow Bus Current price: $4.80 From 5 July: $4.87
Current price: $3.36 From 5 July: $3.40
Wynyard to Randwick Light rail Current price: $3.73 From 5 July: $3.79
Current price: $2.61 From 5 July: $2.65
Central to Star City Casino Light rail Current price: $3.20 From 5 July: $3.20
Current price: $2.24 From 5 July: $2.24
Rydalmere Wharf to Circular Quay Ferry Current price: $7.65 From 5 July: $7.76
Current price: $7.65 From 5 July: $7.76
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

Yet again they erode the transfer discount by not increasing it in line with the fares. Why don't they just come clean they don't want it and abolish it like all the other Opal perks that disappeared.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

On the other hand the weekly cap has also not been changed which is to the traveller's advantage. No mention of the daily or weekend caps. It is assumed that they have also not changed so again to the traveller's advantage.

And as far as the transfer discount is concerned, many trips will be in the 0-3 km band where there is no increase so the erosion would not be as much as first thought.

"Bondi to North Sydney Bus/train - Current price: $4.81" Is there such a combined mode. I cant see a current fare of $4.81 in the current fares.

In most cases only one example is shown for each mode and none shown for Adult Opal single trip ticket fare, so a lot more finer detail is still to come
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

Not changing the weekly cap means, you will reach it quicker and when you are closer to the cap you may as well reach it since it's just an "extra few dollars", but $3*52= $156 extra out of pocket! and if it's $6*52= $312 annual out of pocket!

I have consistently reached the cap but I know for a fact if I was to work for a hypothetical extraordinarily flexible employer, I could save big $$$ by avoiding peak hour at all times and traveling shorter distances only and merging multiple trips into a single journey
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

What is the 3*52 and 6*52? Please a bit more explanation.I assume the 3 and 6 are weekly dollar increase amounts. To go up by $6 you would have to spend $400 per week- well over the cap so to get to an increase of $6 you would have to spend $50 + 2*350= $750 in fares before the weekly cap deductions. How may people would travel that much?
And would require even more if daily caps and weekend caps are taken into consideration. Because of the various combinations possible, it is impossible to be more specific.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:59 pm On the other hand the weekly cap has also not been changed which is to the traveller's advantage. No mention of the daily or weekend caps. It is assumed that they have also not changed so again to the traveller's advantage.
So my weekly spend increases again while my colleagues that live in the lower blue mountains for 'lifestyle reasons' continue to have relatively low capped' fare. (For the most part, they live a long way away because they choose to, not because they couldn't afford a place closer)
I realize this may simply be an oddity of the demographic of my workplace.

I can see why someone once proposed the crazy idea of setting fares based on the average income of the region served...
Probably someone like me who lives relatively close to their employment who sees their fares increase each time, while colleagues who live further away and love to brag about their 'better lifestyle' get no increase over multiple fare rises (or even get decreases!)
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Short distance trips cost more per kilometre; always have, always will. While nobody likes price rises, they are a fact of life, and we should be grateful it is only a CPI increase, bearing in mind there wasn't an increase last year. Had the government sought to retain its recovery percentage of 20-30%, it would have been much higher than 1.5%.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by marcnut1996 »

boxythingy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:24 pm Not changing the weekly cap means, you will reach it quicker and when you are closer to the cap you may as well reach it since it's just an "extra few dollars", but $3*52= $156 extra out of pocket! and if it's $6*52= $312 annual out of pocket!

I have consistently reached the cap but I know for a fact if I was to work for a hypothetical extraordinarily flexible employer, I could save big $$$ by avoiding peak hour at all times and traveling shorter distances only and merging multiple trips into a single journey
How do you even get $3 weekly increase? Assuming 10 trips a week, for an existing customer to not reach the weekly cap, he or she must spend less than $5.56 per trip (8 trips of $5.56 + 2 remaining half-price trips of $2.78 is almost $50).

It is clear that the price increase is higher for longer travel distances so we should be comparing before and after for longer travel distances. The most expensive mode combo that I could determine that cost less than $5.56 would be 65+ km train/metro + 3-8 km bus/light rail during the off peak ($4.82+$2.61-$2 = $5.43). Now with the fare increase, they will cost $4.89+$2.65-$2 = $5.54, right below the trip equivalent of the weekly cap. This is only an increase of $0.11 per trip, and for 10 trips, this is an increase of 8*$0.11+2*$0.055 = $0.99.

Before: 8*$5.43 + 2*$2.715 = $48.87
After: 8*$5.54 + 2*$2.77 = $49.86
Difference: +$0.99

Therefore, for someone that takes that 10 trips, the total increase per week is only about a $1, or $52 a year. To achieve a $3 weekly increase, you probably have to make about 47 separate trips per week (8*$0.11+38*$0.055 = $2.97), which is impossible anyway as the weekly cap will be reached.
Last edited by marcnut1996 on Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:35 am Short distance trips cost more per kilometre; always have, always will.
How does that work? Surely large numbers of short trips are more economical than servicing a small number of people travelling farther.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Cost to the passenger reduces, not the operator. For example, a 5km rail journey costs $0.72 per km, a 15km journey $0.30, a 25km journey $0.21.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

The gold opal $2•50 daily cap is just a continuation of the PET fare witch hasn’t been touched since 2005
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by stupid_girl »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:33 pm Cost to the passenger reduces, not the operator. For example, a 5km rail journey costs $0.72 per km, a 15km journey $0.30, a 25km journey $0.21.
It makes perfect sense. There is a large proportion of fixed cost. Once a train is scheduled, it makes little difference whether the passengers onboard are travelling for 1 stop or all the way to the terminus.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

The cost per kilometre to run the train(wages, electricity, maintenance, etc) is much the same whether it goes 1 km or 100 km.

The reducing scale is mainly an inducement to encourage people to decentralise living and discourage car usage.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

boronia wrote: The cost per kilometre to run the train(wages, electricity, maintenance, etc) is much the same whether it goes 1 km or 100 km.
To a point some of the fixed costs will be the same, but electricity and maintenance costs will directly correlate with how far the train goes.
boronia wrote: The reducing scale is mainly an inducement to encourage people to decentralise living and discourage car usage.
It's also for socio-economic reasons. Those who live closer to major employment centres tend to be higher earners with those further out earning less. If it was a flat rate at say 20 cents per kilometre, then somebody from Bondi Junction would pay 70 cents, while from Gosford it would cost $16, so yes short distance passengers do pay more than long distance, a bit like higher earners pay a higher rate of income tax.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Ah yes, the transfer discount just becomes more and more useless, remaining at its $2 level. The $2 transfer discount is already 5 years old - its value is just slowly eroding the longer fares increase as years go by and it stays at $2.

I however do commend the weekly cap remaining at $50, and of course, the existing daily caps remaining as they are.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

Of course you like the aspects that advantage you but you dislike the one that disadvantages you. If they were to be indexed they should all be indexed, not just the one that disadvantages you.
If that were the case fares would overall increase more so overall passengers are better off as it is.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »


Linto63 wrote:Short distance trips cost more per kilometre; always have, always will. While nobody likes price rises, they are a fact of life, and we should be grateful it is only a CPI increase,
Don't think anyone disagrees with that as a concept
(Or effectively a flag fall).

But over the last 10+ years there has been a drastic shift in the relativity of shorter and longer fares.
- Collapse from about 9 fare bands into 5 before Opal
- The $50 cap which benefits longer trip users
- The lack of a fourth tier for long bus journeys
- The lack of indexation of transfer benefit
- The recent substantial jump in 0-3km bus/light rail fares (somewhat offset by off-peak introduction)....

On say Wollongong-Newcastle, the weekly fare $50 would be cheaper than any equivalent in China... And a tiny percentage of what you'd pay in the UK.

And I can't see anyone tackling the $2.50 fare.. which has had no indexation for how long?

--

We are quickly becoming like Melbourne where almost everyone (other than the free zone) pays the same fare. As Zone 1 is the same price as 1+2.



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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:01 pm The gold opal $2•50 daily cap is just a continuation of the PET fare witch hasn’t been touched since 2005
What are they scared of? Don't they agree that everyone has to chip in fairly meaning Boomers, Gen X, Gen Y, Gen Z all have to pay their fair increased share?

Why would a $0.10 rise per more than one decade be so much more an outage than $2.50 becoming $2.60, then $2.70, then $2.80 and then $8.60 (weekend cap) soon each year within half a decade?
Last edited by boxythingy on Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

But over the last 10+ years there has been a drastic shift in the relativity of shorter and longer fares.
- Collapse from about 9 fare bands into 5 before Opal - that does not stop the highest band still being as high as the previous highest band
- The $50 cap which benefits longer trip users - the equivalent of the weekly tickets discounts which I agree does tend to favour the longer trips - IPart did recommended some complex changes to solve this but it also would introduce other problems.
- The lack of a fourth tier for long bus journeys - that does not stop the highest band still being as high as the previous highest band
- The lack of indexation of transfer benefit - I think I have already commented on that - if it is indexed so should the other caps which would be more disadvantageous.
- The recent substantial jump in 0-3km bus/light rail fares (somewhat offset by off-peak introduction)....but none this time
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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boxythingy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:07 pm
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:01 pm The gold opal $2•50 daily cap is just a continuation of the PET fare witch hasn’t been touched since 2005
What are they scared of? Don't they agree that everyone has to chip in fairly meaning Boomers, Gen X, Gen Y, Gen Z all have to pay their fair increased share?

Why would a $0.10 rise per more than one decade be so much more an outage than $2.50 becoming $2.60, then $2.70, then $2.80 and then $8.60 (weekend cap) soon each year within half a decade?
Please what does the 8.60 mean in the last paragraph?? Like the earlier paragraph it does not make sense.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Fleet Lists wrote: Please what does the 8.60 mean in the last paragraph?? Like the earlier paragraph it does not make sense.
Probably meant to be $8.05 which is what the Sunday cap was increased to from $2.80 when abolished last year. As usual when a fare increase is announced, the discussion get overrun by those bemoaning their lot, or jealousy at what others get, e.g. the PET $2.50. By world standards out fares are cheap, and for many, significantly cheaper than they were 20 years ago.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »


Fleet Lists wrote:combined edits
- Collapse from about 9 fare bands into 5 before Opal - that does not stop the highest band still being as high as the previous highest band
But there has been a massive relative compression from cheapest to most expensive (and I think the most expensive tiers got pulled back under the compression if I remember correctly)
- The lack of a fourth tier for long bus journeys - that does not stop the highest band still being as high as the previous highest band
Agreed. But it's problematic in say Rouse Hill- CBD on Metro/Train Vs Bus.. and don't mention the good deal for those in Palm Beach (and not sure if you've ever looked at house prices there)
- The lack of indexation of transfer benefit - I think I have already commented on that - if it is indexed so should the other caps which would be more disadvantageous.
Well yes.. but at some point the caps remove user pays and create a flat fare system
- The recent substantial jump in 0-3km bus/light rail fares (somewhat offset by off-peak introduction)....but none this time
5c.. when it went up over $1 a year ago.. woopee.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:36 pm [Probably meant to be $8.05 which is what the Sunday cap was increased to from $2.80 when abolished last year. As usual when a fare increase is announced, the discussion get overrun by those bemoaning their lot, or jealousy at what others get, e.g. the PET $2.50. By world standards out fares are cheap, and for many, significantly cheaper than they were 20 years ago.
The PET was only exclusive to Cityrail STA/Sydney Buses and Sydney Ferries when the fare was a $1•10. The strange thing is that the recommendations from the Unsworth bus network review witch might have included the addition of private bus operators to who could sell PETs to passengers where starting to be implemented around the time of the 2005 $1•40 PET price rise witch gave us the $2•50 witch has been used as the price for what was basicly a single day free and unlimited travel pass for pensioners after payment and the current gold opal daily cap
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

moa999 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:10 pm We are quickly becoming like Melbourne where almost everyone (other than the free zone) pays the same fare. As Zone 1 is the same price as 1+2.
In my opinion we are still quite a fair bit off Melbourne’s structure - we don’t have flat fares for entire trips for every mode in the metropolitan area like Melbourne does, nor do we have zones anymore, or, luckily the worst of all, a free zone in the CBD! Which I’m quite thankful for, that last one is by far the worst thing I’ve seen in a fare structure in Australian cities. Only thing I like better about Melbourne is the daily cap being almost half of ours, and the availability of buying weekly or longer passes.

I would agree with some above comments implying unfairness with the current Opal fare bands, especially for trains - and to be fair (pun not intended), these fare bands I think are due for an overhaul.

Like I get when Opal was being designed and implemented at the very start, they tried to lazily replicate as much as possible from the existing MyZone system, the weekly travel reward tried mimicking weekly train tickets, the weekly cap tried mimicking MyMulti3 weekly tickets, the Sunday $2.50 cap tried mimicking Sunday Funday paper ticket (both now defunct), and then you have the actual single fare bands themselves which were for the most part, lazily cut and paste, with an off peak discount for trains to help encourage uptake of the card.
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