Opal Discussion and Observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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swtt
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by swtt »

I'm not sure if it was "lazily replicate". If they were ready to face backlash they'd certainly would have developed something totally and radically different. But the mood was to get people on board Opal first, after the long running saga with the Tcard implementation.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:35 am bearing in mind there wasn't an increase last year.
They altered the off-peak hours. Now it's no longer possible for me to alter my work start and finish times and travel off-peak. I still have the option to move my work start and finish times, but it no longer makes any difference to the fare paid.
So I got a small fare increase last year anyway.
And the number of people I used to see at stations watching the clock count towards 9 am means I wasn't the only one moving their start and finish times to get the discount.
Progressively every 'opal perk' I got when the system came in has been removed. The loss of the free after 8 was about a 10%+ fare increase for me and probably every other 5 days a week train commuter. That 'travel reward' was supposed to compensate for the loss of discounted periodical tickets.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

The off-peak window was shortened to reflect that the peak periods had evolved to extend beyond the traditional 7-9am and 4-6pm windows. But on the flip side, hitherto non-existent off-peak fares were introduced on bus services. Eight and free had turned into a rort and had to go, with all the card running and whatnot.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

matthewg wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:00 am
Progressively every 'opal perk' I got when the system came in has been removed. The loss of the free after 8 was about a 10%+ fare increase for me and probably every other 5 days a week train commuter. That 'travel reward' was supposed to compensate for the loss of discounted periodical tickets.
Unfortunately that reward opened the great rort of getting a lot of cheap trips early in the week so that long trips could then be done free later in the week. That was stopped by having later trips at half price which was at a price.
Like all good thing people took advantage of it and had to be stopped somehow.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by mandonov »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:23 am The off-peak window was shortened to reflect that the peak periods had evolved to extend beyond the traditional 7-9am and 4-6pm windows.
If this were truly the reason for the change then they would have extended service frequency to peak levels over that extended peak period, yet they haven’t. This is simply a way of increasing fare recovery while still claiming they don’t increase fares beyond CPI.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:23 am Eight and free had turned into a rort and had to go, with all the card running and whatnot.
It was probably the embarrassing publicity about the rort rather than the actual revenue loss that meant it had to go after persisting for quite a while and being dismissed as a problem by the former minister. As the report you linked indicates the government effectively eliminated the gaming of the system by changing the transfer rules. IPART was aware of that when it produced its final report noting the change in a footnote but the rort was a secondary concern of IPART even in their draft report. The draft report recommended that the reward be changed so customers pay for the most expensive 10 journeys but this was deemed by the government to be too difficult to implement and IPART came up with the current alternative in its final report along with a more sane alternative to a separate multi-modal fare structure.

In the end, Opal fare changes are about the government grabbing more revenue when they can while keeping certain groups happy. Unfortunately, the government or opposition has no interest in making Opal a decent fare system and IPART is severely bound by what it can do apart from lacking the necessary expertise. Ideally, the fare system should be reviewed by an independent group with the necessary skills as happened for the SEQ review a few years ago. I await grumbling about fare increases from those forced to interchange between buses and trams when all the CSELR bus changes are finally implemented.

BTW, I notice there the PR about the Opal fare increases only mentioned caps that were remaining at the same level, so presumably the weekday and weekend caps will rise by the nearest 5c or 10c increment to the CPI increase, so say $16.40 for the Adult weekday cap.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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Passenger 57 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:04 pm BTW, I notice there the PR about the Opal fare increases only mentioned caps that were remaining at the same level, so presumably the weekday and weekend caps will rise by the nearest 5c or 10c increment to the CPI increase, so say $16.40 for the Adult weekday cap.
I mentioned that earlier and to the contrary I expect that all the caps will stay the same.
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Opal refuses to refund second overcharged fare

Post by Newcastle Flyer »

Today while going to an appointment and back, I was overcharged twice, because it claimed "No tap off". And yes I tap on and off. It also claims I tapped on at the point I tapped off at. I also charged an extra fare well within the hour limit (about 30 mins apart).

While I did get the first overcharged fare adjusted, the other Opal person at night after it went on to my activity statement refused to refund the overcharged difference of the second fare, ie: that's still overcharged by around 49% for today.

He claimed yes, but you've already had your fare adjusted today, however, he won't adjust the second fare that I was overcharged on. :x
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

I didn't know there was some limit imposed on how many adjustments can be made, never mind how many errors occurred on their end?
Sounds like the Opal employee either tried to shirk responsibility or is worried about being quizzed by a superior on why he granted multiple adjustments at once.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Frodo »

The off-peak timing change alone has increased my fares by $9 a week and I'm only in the office 3 days a week currently. If I had to go back to the office 5 days a week, that's a $14 per week increase ($32 to $46 a week based on the 20-35km fare).

I get the yearly CPI increases every year, that part is not an issue. What I have a big issue with is for them to claim that 9-10am is a "peak period" while service levels are much poorer than peak (e.g Hornsby to the city trains only every 15 min) and pre-pandemic trains at that time were half empty - clearly not 'peak hour'.

If they increased service levels to reflect the peak fare then at least I would be a little less outraged, because it is clearly just revenue raising for people who have no choice but to catch trains during the new peak times now.
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Re: Opal refuses to refund second overcharged fare

Post by Stonesourscotty »

Newcastle Flyer wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:57 pm Today while going to an appointment and back, I was overcharged twice, because it claimed "No tap off". And yes I tap on and off. It also claims I tapped on at the point I tapped off at. I also charged an extra fare well within the hour limit (about 30 mins apart).

While I did get the first overcharged fare adjusted, the other Opal person at night after it went on to my activity statement refused to refund the overcharged difference of the second fare, ie: that's still overcharged by around 49% for today.

He claimed yes, but you've already had your fare adjusted today, however, he won't adjust the second fare that I was overcharged on. :x

I've previously had 3 bus fares changed in a day on Opal only as recently as March 18th so I don't think either the staff member followed protocol or you where lied to..
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

Have you ever got a free ride because the system was down?
Would you ring up and offer to pay for the trip?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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Frodo wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:50 pm The off-peak timing change alone has increased my fares by $9 a week and I'm only in the office 3 days a week currently. If I had to go back to the office 5 days a week, that's a $14 per week increase ($32 to $46 a week based on the 20-35km fare).

I get the yearly CPI increases every year, that part is not an issue. What I have a big issue with is for them to claim that 9-10am is a "peak period" while service levels are much poorer than peak (e.g Hornsby to the city trains only every 15 min) and pre-pandemic trains at that time were half empty - clearly not 'peak hour'.

If they increased service levels to reflect the peak fare then at least I would be a little less outraged, because it is clearly just revenue raising for people who have no choice but to catch trains during the new peak times now.
I assume you are referring to last year's change as there is no such change this year
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

Frodo wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:50 pm I get the yearly CPI increases every year, that part is not an issue. What I have a big issue with is for them to claim that 9-10am is a "peak period" while service levels are much poorer than peak (e.g Hornsby to the city trains only every 15 min) and pre-pandemic trains at that time were half empty - clearly not 'peak hour'.
Presumably peak is determined by the number of people using the services. More people in this period, but not enough to warrant additional services at this stage?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

On my line the peak diagrams kept running past 9am, so we got peak service at off-peak fares. Non more. Now the peak hour fares match the peak hour enhanced diagrams.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Frodo »

Fleet Lists wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:09 pm I assume you are referring to last year's change as there is no such change this year
Yes, the change last June-July to extend peak hours - however, most office workers were working from home then. It did not affect me until February this year though as that was when I had to return to the office 3 days a week.
Service levels on the T1 and T9 are also at 15 min intervals past 9am - paying peak fares for off-peak levels of service.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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"Peak fares" are supposed to be a ruse to discourage people from travelling unnecessarily in the busiest periods, nothing to do directly with the level of service. The change in times was another ruse to allow peak travellers (what little there were) to alter their travel times to comply with social distancing, by again discouraging unnecessary travel.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Aurora »

Peak fares are the actual core fares though, off-peak fares have a substantial discount applied, yes to encourage off-peak travel when patronage is quieter.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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6 of one. ½ a dozen of the other. The fare differential is to shift demand from a resource limited supply to one where the supply is considered adequate to meet the demand. Saying the off-peak fare is discounted is obviously preferable from a marketing viewpoint than saying the peak fare is surcharged. IPART has previously recommended a 40% discount from the peak fare. Obviously, IPART also recommended other changes to cover the revenue short fall.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Aurora »

If there was no off-peak incentive, what is referred to as the “peak” fare would apply 24/7. It is the core fare everything is worked out of.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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No, we would just have a fare somewhere between the current and off-peak fares and heavier peak hour demand. Sure, off-peak fares are defined as a 30% discount to the peak fare, but equally you could define the peak fare as a 43% surcharge to the off-peak fare. It's clear which one is preferable for marketing purposes. As for a core fares there are a lot more off-peak hours than peak ones.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

So which would provide the more palatable "incentive" to encourage OP travel? A surcharge on a lower base fare, or a discount on a higher base fare?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

People love a discount so the latter and current set up is more palatable but changing the marketing to make the peak fare a surcharge on the off-peak fare might prove to more effective on people with limited reasoning skills. A 43% surcharge seems much more expensive than a 30% discount. A better way to incentivise off-peak travel is to increase service frequency I think. Crowding in the peak is its own disincentive.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Aurora »

Passenger 57 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:08 amA better way to incentivise off-peak travel is to increase service frequency I think.
If it reduces the gap between taxpayer funding requirements and fare revenue, then I would be more than happy to support such a scheme. Although I do not think that would happen due to the increased labour cost.
Passenger 57 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:08 am Crowding in the peak is its own disincentive.
If that really is the case, then the off-peak discount should be abolished.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

Passenger 57 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:08 am Crowding in the peak is its own disincentive.
But not that many of the people crowding onto these services can do anything about it. I would suspect the most people are expected to be at their employment during 'business hours and do not have much flexibility to move their start-finish times around to take advantage of 'off peak' discounts.
I have the flexibility to alter my start and finish times by a small amount and used to do so to get the off-peak fares, but now with the extended peak fares there is now no incentive to tweak my hours - my trains are not rammed full mid-peak anyway, so I can usually get a seat anyway.
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