Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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boronia
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

moa999 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:21 am All the metro trains have manual controls hidden away.
There is a panel at the end of the cars suitable for emergency movements. There is no way that a train would be allowed to driven with passengers on board in normal service.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Glen »

boxythingy wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:58 am Don't they have customer service attendants (driving qualified) type roles floating around the network?
I only ride the Metro occasionally but I haven't seen one for quite a while.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by mubd »

I saw someone who looked like a Metro rep with a dustpan and broom standing around looking at their phone this morning near the front of the train. I suspect this may have been the 'backup'.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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I have been riding the metro about once a week for the last few months and have yet to see a staff member on the trains, of any description.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

^ sounds like an ideal recipe for crime to me. I have read articles that there has been a down side to this infrastructure in attracting the undesirable element to the Hills.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Glen »

Swift wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:48 pm ^ sounds like an ideal recipe for crime to me. I have read articles that there has been a down side to this infrastructure in attracting the undesirable element to the Hills.
That's right, because criminals don't drive cars. :roll:
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

I'm talking about youth crime and do you have to be sarcastic?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Merc1107 »

Not just youth. All manner of unsavoury types are often dependent on public transport.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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There tactics used called "Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design" which means that you don't need to have a station attendant or staff member there to be a "deterrent" for crime. This employs techniques such as open spaces, bright and clear lighting, good sight-lines, just the sheer fact that lots of people will be around these station precincts that act as a physical deterrent to stop the crime before it starts. These proactive measures (rather than the reactive ones we seem to want to employ at possible opportunity such as punishments and restraint) actually work and are effective. At the end of the day, what's one station attendant (probably wearing a badge saying 'I'm here to help') going to do against some unruly people that are already causing trouble?

And you'll find that even though the media love to pounce on anything that some tiny percentage of the "youth" do wrong (due to a range of social issues stemming from their parents and homelife from a lack of proper up bringing and support- but this cycle is a whole other issue in itself!), you'll find that there's a lot more "mature" aged people doing similar things.

The Metro has brought so many huge benefits to the Hills district than what the media will love to portray. Yes, there are a few out there who may cause issues. But seriously, the other 15+ million commuters each year will tell you otherwise and you'll always have a lower common denominator in society, it's just about what you do to help them. Do you take proactive measures to target the source of the problem and break the cycle there, or do you take reactive measures such as punishment after a preventable event has happened which will only exacerbate the tension and frustration? I certainly know which one will and does work best...
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

I remember an experiment like this some years ago at Newtown Station where they played continuous classical music through the PA. Apparently it emptied the riff raff out and reduced the vandalism quicksmart. I don't know why they haven't continued with this. It would also make travelling for some of us more pleasant (callout to those bus drivers who like to air their own rock music tastes through the bus PA whether the passengers like it or not!).
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

20 or so years ago, classical music, or any form of piped Musak, was touted as a universal cure for disrupting riff-raff. Perhaps the modern prevalence of "noise cancelling" headphones and earphones overcomes the disruptive value of it?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Merc1107 »

Cazza wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:49 am There tactics used called "Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design" which means that you don't need to have a station attendant or staff member there to be a "deterrent" for crime. This employs techniques such as open spaces, bright and clear lighting, good sight-lines, just the sheer fact that lots of people will be around these station precincts that act as a physical deterrent to stop the crime before it starts. These proactive measures (rather than the reactive ones we seem to want to employ at possible opportunity such as punishments and restraint) actually work and are effective. At the end of the day, what's one station attendant (probably wearing a badge saying 'I'm here to help') going to do against some unruly people that are already causing trouble?
Most of Perth's Stations seem to be designed like this. Doesn't seem to deter the itinerants that well. Day in, day out, the same passengers are disrupting the safe, efficient function of the bus network, and face no consequences for it. They also cause a lot of grief for shops in the adjoining suburbs. Sometimes it gets bad enough to make the news.

I don't think the passive solutions are all they're made out to be. They're a piece of the puzzle, but it needs backing up with the law and programs designed to enforce the law, and break drug/poverty cycles.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Cazza »

I agree there's no one solution to this complex, intergenerational problem. However, I'd want to say that because Perth's rail network is suburban based (i.e. into suburbs rather than dense areas), there is likely to be less people in and around these station precincts. Having people around in itself is a big deterrent for crime. This is why most Sydney Metro stations would be benefitting from these techniques more than Perth's suburban stations. However, I haven't been over to Perth so this is just a simple educated guess on one of the reasons why.

I do agree that there needs to be more done, I just feel that there needs to be a focus on addressing the issue proactively, rather than reactively.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

Perth's stations tend to be guarded by large numbers of burly security types (that no one would dare to mess with). Possibly they ride on trains at night too?

Perth's CBD seemed to be pretty well deserted at nights, even at weekends, so perhaps the average citizen is civilised and stays at home.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

I read all sorts of news over time of dreadful violent incidents in Perth but so far have not come across anything more than even a ripple of discontent. I must be in the wrong places. There are very busy nightlife spots in Perth but not in the CBD itself. Armidale line suburbs seem to make the news for the wrong reasons sometimes. Most rail stations are like tram stops, unstaffed and bare. Those security guards seem to ride the trains more than being on the stations. The biggest danger in Perth is motorists. There are almost no pedestrian crossings and drivers will readily run over you rather than show any leeway.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Merc1107 »

Thanks Cazza for clarifying your viewpoint. I do agree you can probably flush out trouble with crowds of good people... Outside of Metros, the trouble is getting them to visit places beset with social issues.
tonyp wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:54 pm I read all sorts of news over time of dreadful violent incidents in Perth but so far have not come across anything more than even a ripple of discontent. I must be in the wrong places.
The news isn't wrong - and in fact underreports to an extent based on my own experiences. The woes in some places simmer along, day after day, and it takes a tremendous toll on the people that must live with it (whether locals, workers at shops or in public transport, etc). Sometimes it is just a presence, other times the individuals (or groups thereof) make their presence known. Periodically it gets much, much worse - as is reported on the news. Buses disabled, shops under siege, and so on.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Swift wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:10 pm I'm talking about youth crime and do you have to be sarcastic?
Sorry no offence intended but your comment was not specific to youth crime.

Anyway it's been a long debated theory which is a shame because it was part of the opposition to extending the ESR to Bondi Beach.

The Americans seem particularly fond of the belief, e.g.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... in-atlanta
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

One of the recurring themes on local social media after the metro opened and the inevitable "detrimental interferences" with cars left all day in the commuter car parks began was that Windsor Rd represented a clear social divide in the eyes of the locals. Apparently the Hills side of Windsor Rd is the aspirational side and the Blacktown side is the home of, shall we say, the "less aspirational" sector of society upon whom the blame for the petty crime was squarely placed by the aspirationals.

One thing that transit is very effective at is transporting felons to areas far from home where they can ply their trade away from the watchful eyes of their local plod. Glancing through Nowra local court cases over the last few years, I have observed that some of the people apprehended for local burglaries etc hailed from foreign places like Mt Druitt, Campbelltown or Raby and that they often came by train.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Glen »

Before the Metro opened there were unofficial Park and ride arrangements at several bus stops along Old Northern Road for the M2 City buses.

I don't think I've ever seen large numbers of people parking at what was basically just a bus stop, anywhere else in Sydney.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Glen wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:53 pm
Swift wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:10 pm I'm talking about youth crime and do you have to be sarcastic?
Sorry no offence intended but your comment was not specific to youth crime.

Anyway it's been a long debated theory which is a shame because it was part of the opposition to extending the ESR to Bondi Beach.

The Americans seem particularly fond of the belief, e.g.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... in-atlanta
That study admits that increases have indeed occurred in some places and relatively little in others, however you interpret that.
I don't believe that should preclude better PT links being built as the benefits are greater than the pitfalls, but those pitfalls do exist and have proven to in the Metro's case.
Last edited by Swift on Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Cazza »

The area surrounding Barclay Rd and Oakes Rd M2 stops have always seen large numbers of parked cars around them. Why there isn’t better bus connectivity to/from/past these stations and linking key surrounding centres/interchanges is definitely something I feel should be addressed, even with the metro in place.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Glen »

Cazza wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:33 pm The area surrounding Barclay Rd and Oakes Rd M2 stops have always seen large numbers of parked cars around them. Why there isn’t better bus connectivity to/from/past these stations and linking key surrounding centres/interchanges is definitely something I feel should be addressed, even with the metro in place.
I was more thinking of ordinary bus stops, like parking near Baulkham Hills TAFE and also near Church St, Castle Hill.

The bus stops on the M2 were not planned well from the start. I can remember whilst the road was being built, publicly asking an RTA representative about car parking and they just looked at me blankly.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Glen »

Swift wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:31 pm I don't believe that should preclude better PT links being built as the benefits are greater than the pitfalls, but those pitfalls do exist and have proven to in the Metro's case.
I haven't been keeping up with this. What proof have you seen?

The only reference I found was this from early 2020:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/comment ... uth_crime/
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Glen wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:22 pm
Swift wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:31 pm I don't believe that should preclude better PT links being built as the benefits are greater than the pitfalls, but those pitfalls do exist and have proven to in the Metro's case.
I haven't been keeping up with this. What proof have you seen?

The only reference I found was this from early 2020:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/comment ... uth_crime/
Here's an article trying to downplay the problem but they do mention police have noticed a rise in certain offences.
It's a left leaning newspaper like that publication from America the earlier link, and the idea of people from poorer areas spoiling areas with a better image is a touchy subject to left wingers.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by mandonov »

Glen wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:18 pm
Cazza wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:33 pm The area surrounding Barclay Rd and Oakes Rd M2 stops have always seen large numbers of parked cars around them. Why there isn’t better bus connectivity to/from/past these stations and linking key surrounding centres/interchanges is definitely something I feel should be addressed, even with the metro in place.
I was more thinking of ordinary bus stops, like parking near Baulkham Hills TAFE and also near Church St, Castle Hill.

The bus stops on the M2 were not planned well from the start. I can remember whilst the road was being built, publicly asking an RTA representative about car parking and they just looked at me blankly.
There’s currently a project for a new Opal P&R at Barclay Rd in the wedge of land between Perry St and the M2. 135 spaces.

Image

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... r-car-park
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