Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

So somebody who wants to go between Liverpool and Bankstown to Waterloo will change trains twice - at Regents Park and Bankstown. Yet in the future they are planning a direct connection between Liverpool and Bankstown to Waterloo, which means there must be enough demand on this corridor to justify that.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

Couldn't they stay on the first train to Central, and change to Metro there, one stop to Waterloo?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

"With 120 trains moving into the CBD during peak hour, Mr Constance said the Metro would increase it to 200."

So now the metro has crept up to 40tph in each direction has it? Last I heard, it was 30tph. It will be a long time before that happens, or is even warranted, without branching at each end (which was the original intention). The line is currently proposed to run at 15tph in each direction. Talk about overkill!
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

20 TPH to Tallawong, 20 TPH to Bankstown?

You've got to be creative with numbers to be a Transport Minister,
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

The other twenty services are probably extra suburban services on other lines that will be enabled by removing the Bankstown line from the system.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

boronia wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:20 pm 20 TPH to Tallawong, 20 TPH to Bankstown?

You've got to be creative with numbers to be a Transport Minister,
That would be a reasonable expectation in the longer term, but it's still only half of the alleged extra 80tph coming into the CBD. Not forgetting that there is still the option of increasing the metro train lengths from 6 to 8 cars to increase capacity further.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:36 pm The other twenty services are probably extra suburban services on other lines that will be enabled by removing the Bankstown line from the system.
Constance is correct in stating that there are currently 120tph coming through the CBD in the morning peak hour, but not into the CBD if you discount the 12tph on the Main into Sydney Terminal (4 x CCN Intercity + 4 x BM Intercity + 4 x Hornsby Suburban). That of course excludes Regional services which are probably outside the peak anyway.

By my estimation, when the T3 Bankstown Line is removed from the City Circle following the metro conversion, the current 10tph will merely be transferred to extra T8 services via Sydenham and on T2 to accommodate the reinstatement of Liverpool via Regents Park services. There will therefore be no difference in the number of services on the existing network through the CBD. The current South Coast Intercity services will be redirected to Sydney Terminal via the new crossovers at Erskineville instead of proceeding to Bondi Junction which will allow for an increase in T4 services from Hurstville, Cronulla and/or Waterfall.

However, if you factor in the rollout of ATO on all lines which is currently being implemented for trialling on T4, I estimate that there could potentially be 140tph on the existing network through the CBD, excluding additional Intercity and Suburban services on the Main terminating at Central.

While the metro conversion with the new crossovers at Hurstville and Erskineville may indirectly contribute to this outcome, it's actually ATO which will allow for any increase in existing suburban services, assuming they are included in the alleged additional 80 services. Rather than giving the misleading impression that the additional services will be attributed to the "metro", which is unlikely to be 80tph on its own, the Minister should be more transparent in explaining that the figure includes increases on the existing network, not necessarily because of the metro, but other upgrades to existing infrastructure such as ATO.

The current 120tph through the CBD in the morning peak is fed by 8 lines, which pre-COVID was in excess of 400 million passengers pa. The metro will be fed by only 2 lines (Bankstown and Tallawong) and even allowing for its future extensions to Liverpool and Schofields respectively, I can't envisage its inherent capacity ever being realised without branching, if in fact it's feasible because of the lack of stub tunnels.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Branching slashes the capacity of each of the branches. It's not a good way to go. With the ultimate potential of 2 minute headways and eight-car trains, the metro has all the capacity it will ever need.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:13 am Branching slashes the capacity of each of the branches. It's not a good way to go. With the ultimate potential of 2 minute headways and eight-car trains, the metro has all the capacity it will ever need.
But the question is - will it ever be needed?

To put things into perspective, the most recent train statistics I can lay my hands on for morning peak hour journeys (08:00 - 08:59 at Central) published for March 2014, shows the busiest line T1 Western & Richmond having a total passenger load of 17,109 measured at Redfern and provided by 16 trains. That represents an average load factor of 122%. It doesn't include T2, T9 or Intercity. Patronage has obviously increased since then, but still provided by the same number of trains if you exclude the T2 all stations Parramatta starters.

Looking at the T3 Bankstown Line, the total passenger load was 8,669 measured at Erskineville/St Peters and provided by 8 trains (since increased to 10) with an average load factor of 120%.

Let's assume that current pre-COVID patronage had increased to 20,000 on T1 and 10,000 on T3. I don't know what the current patronage is on the single line Metro Northwest from Tallawong to Chatswood, but I'd be surprised if it came anywhere near 20,000 in the one hour peak with 15tph. Similarly on the Bankstown Metro Line, current patronage of say around 10,000 in the morning peak hour would be half of the metro's deemed capacity of 20,000 at 15tph with 8 car trains. It would also only be a quarter of the metro's ultimate capacity of 40,000 at 30tph, which I seriously doubt would ever be warranted. It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that patronage would increase fourfold, even with increased development and a possible extension to Liverpool.

It's still early days yet as far as Metro Northwest is concerned and we won't really know what its overall patronage will be until it is extended into the CBD. On the other hand, the Bankstown Metro will be grossly underutilised IMO and it warrants a branch, say from Sydenham to Miranda via Sydney Airport. It may ultimately turn out the same way for Metro Northwest with a possible branch from Victoria Cross, if feasible, to the Northern Beaches. It's economically wasteful to build whole new metro lines as a single line to satisfy the purists when its ultimate inherent capacity may never be realised in what is essentially a low density city. It would be more prudent to maximise a line's capacity through a denser inner city core with branching on its outer reaches. I wouldn't suggest any more than two branches per line though.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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I would prefer to leave a legacy of adequacy to future generations rather than short-change them as previous generations of politicians and planners have. It isn't for either of us to predict how big Sydney will be in the future. The existing denser inner city core will be repeated around Parramatta and Bringelly as the triple cobweb pattern of development gains traction. You seem to have this view of Sydney as a typical single-core city. Sydney has been decentralised since November 1788, it's Australia's most decentralised city, with its population and geographical centre near Parramatta.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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tonyp wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:12 am I would prefer to leave a legacy of adequacy to future generations rather than short-change them as previous generations of politicians and planners have. It isn't for either of us to predict how big Sydney will be in the future. The existing denser inner city core will be repeated around Parramatta and Bringelly as the triple cobweb pattern of development gains traction. You seem to have this view of Sydney as a typical single-core city. Sydney has been decentralised since November 1788, it's Australia's most decentralised city, with its population and geographical centre near Parramatta.
The flip side of the coin is that greater decentralisation leads to less of a demand for a high capacity metro system. Sydney's population and geographic centre may well be near Parramatta, but the overwhelmingly largest single concentration of employment and demand for travel is the Sydney CBD, and I expect that will continue to be the case. This 3 cities nonsense is a myth. I would consider Parramatta and the Badgerys Creek Aerotropolis to be important regional satellite hubs of the real CBD, i.e. the Eastern Harbour City. You could throw Macquarie Park into that mix as well. A city without a central heart is a city without a soul.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Limited space, limited range of building types and high land value will always place a constraint on the Sydney CBD and encourage the development of other centres. It's important to link all those centres together in a grid, which is what the rail plan aims for.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Sydney CBD will always remain top dog by an immense margin, if for no other reason, the harbour attractions that surround it. A little cement wier won't cut it.
The decentralisation indulgent fantasy world is a distraction to progress.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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The is a lot of underdeveloped space in the CBD and immediate surrounds.
Expansion is not going to end anytime soon.

Barangaroo, Eveleigh, are filling up fast, and soon Pyrmont,

If the government was serious about decentralisation, it should not have allowed these.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:06 am The is a lot of underdeveloped space in the CBD and immediate surrounds.
Expansion is not going to end anytime soon.

Barangaroo, Eveleigh, are filling up fast, and soon Pyrmont,

If the government was serious about decentralisation, it should not have allowed these.
It makes sense to fully utilise these suburbs which will all be served by metro on top of existing dense transit networks. However, there are a lot of extensive heritage conservation areas in inner suburbs that constrain growth.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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I bet developers would love to get their paws on Hyde Park and Wynyard Park. I bet the Liberals would allow it if not for the inevitable backlash.
I was put off Hyde Park years ago when I heard news reports of muggings going on there in the evenings and one time when I went to sit down to read a book, I kept being approached by people for directions and other things like the time. I got so fed up I refused to look up and peeved off a few people in the process. Never again.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Bus Suggestions »

A question from a non-Sydneysider here, after looking at these projects... what is expected to happen to the remainder of the T3? That is, the section from Bankstown to Liverpool and Lidcombe. Will they remain as-is (i.e. Lidcombe and Liverpool to Bankstown) or will they be axed in favour of branching the T2 or T5 etc?
I'd post any important, bus-related links I had, but they're outdated anyways.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Bus Suggestions wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:42 pm A question from a non-Sydneysider here, after looking at these projects... what is expected to happen to the remainder of the T3? That is, the section from Bankstown to Liverpool and Lidcombe. Will they remain as-is (i.e. Lidcombe and Liverpool to Bankstown) or will they be axed in favour of branching the T2 or T5 etc?
Transport for NSW has already decided after a community consultation process, to reinstate the direct Liverpool via Regents Park service to the CBD via the T2 Inner West Line after the Bankstown Line metro conversion in 2024. There will no longer be a direct service from Liverpool to Bankstown to interchange to the metro, but a shuttle service from Lidcombe to Bankstown will be maintained allowing interchange at Regents Park. Leaked documents from TfNSW have suggested that the Liverpool via Regents Park service could be reinstated immediately, without waiting for the metro conversion in 2024.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Transtopic wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:54 amLeaked documents from TfNSW have suggested that the Liverpool via Regents Park service could be reinstated immediately, without waiting for the metro conversion in 2024.
Of course it could, you don’t need “leaked” documents to tell you that. We also used to have Blacktown all stations to City Circle via Bankstown trains in the peak which could be reinstated if they really wanted to. But these workings come at the cost of reliability. That is why they were cut in the first place.

Better off waiting until 2023/4.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by swtt »

Transtopic wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:54 am Leaked documents from TfNSW have suggested that the Liverpool via Regents Park service could be reinstated immediately, without waiting for the metro conversion in 2024.
I still wonder: where are the train paths for this on the Inner West line section from Lidcombe to Redfern? Isn't it already a bit saturated?

Any service added from Liverpool via Regents Park to the City will most likely be just another all stops service.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

Future of T3 post the Metro opening has its own thread.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Scott4570 »

Just further to a post above that indicated TfNSW could reinstate Liverpool services to run via Regents Park immediately.

Given the Current Timetable, if Liverpool Services were diverted to run via Regents Park, in both directions:-
Off-peak hours:
Down Journey: follow a Leppington Service, use a Leppington service stopping pattern, together with a few more stops to avoid a clash at Lidcombe with a Lidcombe to Bankstown service, then slot into the existing Table from Sefton.
Up Journey: follow a Up Leppington Service, with a slight adjustment at Lidcombe to follow the Leppington service, use Leppington service stopping pattern, together with a few more stops to Redfern, so as to slot into the existing path around the Quay.
Peak Hours:
Difficult to divert Down or Up Liverpool services to run between the City and Lidcombe, either as "Semi fast" or "All Stop" services, without altering the current spread and mix of "Semi-fast" and "All Stop" services.

If they were to adopt the 2024 Timetable immediately, this would render no service on the Bankstown Line for the next 3 years.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Aurora »

Scott4570 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:04 pm Just further to a post above that indicated TfNSW could reinstate Liverpool services to run via Regents Park immediately.

Given the Current Timetable, if Liverpool Services were diverted to run via Regents Park, in both directions:-
Off-peak hours:
Down Journey: follow a Leppington Service, use a Leppington service stopping pattern, together with a few more stops to avoid a clash at Lidcombe with a Lidcombe to Bankstown service, then slot into the existing Table from Sefton.
Up Journey: follow a Up Leppington Service, with a slight adjustment at Lidcombe to follow the Leppington service, use Leppington service stopping pattern, together with a few more stops to Redfern, so as to slot into the existing path around the Quay.
Peak Hours:
Difficult to divert Down or Up Liverpool services to run between the City and Lidcombe, either as "Semi fast" or "All Stop" services, without altering the current spread and mix of "Semi-fast" and "All Stop" services.
Yes, a re-timetable would be required to re-spread the Inner West stops across Liverpool/Leppington/Parramatta services, which will be done for 2023/4.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Caught the Metro last night and it was only running one service every 30 minutes (app says that’s normal), which is an insult to the whole turn up and go thing. Like that’s actually worse than the Sydney Trains service it partially replaced.

Cost cutting victim of Covid19 or not, I don’t know, all I do know is I distinctly remember before Covid, it was always every 10 minutes at the very minimum at all times even on Sunday night. It was convenient as it got.

Not really impressed, empty train or not, it feels like a big step back on the original promise of high frequency at all times that we did have in 2019
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