Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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rogf24
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by rogf24 »

swtt wrote:I think a fourth one would be good. $6.60+ for starters....

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Off peak bus fares as well please

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Stu
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by Stu »

swtt wrote: Weren't the bus stops already adjusted last year to speed up the service?

The poor route at the moment basically suffers to lack of bus priority. Some of the (avoidable) southbound congestion happens between Ryde and Homebush Bay Drive (which could easily be fixed with strategically placed bus priority at traffic lights). No such room near Burwood or south of Burwood to place such lanes :(
There have been reductions to the amount of bus stops in the Norhern portion of the route although there were additional bus stops added in the Southern portion of the route in 2012.
Bus stops added in both directions:
- Bexley Rd near Vicliffe St, Clemton Park.
- Seventh Ave near Beamish St, Campsie.
- Burwood Rd near Yandarlo St/Lyminge Rd, Croydon Park.
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swtt
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by swtt »

Stu wrote:
swtt wrote: Weren't the bus stops already adjusted last year to speed up the service?

The poor route at the moment basically suffers to lack of bus priority. Some of the (avoidable) southbound congestion happens between Ryde and Homebush Bay Drive (which could easily be fixed with strategically placed bus priority at traffic lights). No such room near Burwood or south of Burwood to place such lanes :(
There have been reductions to the amount of bus stops in the Norhern portion of the route although there were additional bus stops added in the Southern portion of the route in 2012.
Bus stops added in both directions:
- Bexley Rd near Vicliffe St, Clemton Park.
- Seventh Ave near Beamish St, Campsie.
- Burwood Rd near Yandarlo St/Lyminge Rd, Croydon Park.
...and presumably these stops aren't shared with the then-route 400 or current route 420 :shock:
moa999
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by moa999 »

rogf24 wrote:
swtt wrote:I think a fourth one would be good. $6.60+ for starters....
Off peak bus fares as well please
Agreed (with swtt)
Though $5.40/5.50 for say 16-30 km and $7 for 30+ km would align better with the current train fares.
Although I'd prefer trains to go to actual GPS distance and align in $ terms to the bus.

Off-peak bus fares don't make sense.
An additional bus and depot space (the infrastructure or fixed cost) is relatively cheap compared to the variable (labour for driver/maintenance etc)

Whereas adding additional train capacity is very expensive.

Last IPART Transport Fares report covered this in some detail.
Last edited by moa999 on Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rogf24
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by rogf24 »

F....ing econocrats wreaking everything and IPART is a big part of it

The entire fare system should be integrated with the same fare bands for all modes, same pricing and same discounts/benefits
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by Fleet Lists »

We are getting totally off topic - this no longer has anything to do the Light rail as such. Please ensure we get back on topic.
Living in the Shire.
simonl
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by simonl »

moa999 wrote:Agreed.
Can I just ask are you agreeing with rogf24 or swtt there? Your comment seems to refer to rogf24's "off peak bus fares" but your supporting arguments (FWIW I agree with those) totally oppose that.
Engineering
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by Engineering »

I found this old document about the planned operations of NW metro, https://www.sydneymetro.info/sites/defa ... rt%204.pdf, in particular promising 5 mins per train in peak and 10 off peak. That is going to be very tight with a 37 minute trip (and I think (correct me if I am wrong) 17 trains).

With 2 months to go, I wonder when we might see some full scale trials of all trains in operation up and down the line simulating a peak hour run?

Edit: - Confirm 22 trains - source: https://www.sydneymetro.info/article/me ... speed-test
Last edited by Engineering on Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
grog
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by grog »

It changed to 4 minute peak when the contract with the operator was signed.

Wikipedia says 22 vehicles.
neilrex
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by neilrex »

so much for "seamless transfers". How often are all the "feeder buses" going to run ? And the North shore line trains, outside peak hour?
neilrex
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by neilrex »

Immediately noticeable on that page which you linked... no platform screens, and two doors on the side of the carriage, not three.

Even by the abysmal standards of "artists impressions", that's pretty slack.
neilrex
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by neilrex »

The trip planner is quoting 54 minutes from Rouse Hill Town Centre to Wynyard right now.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by tonyp »

neilrex wrote:The trip planner is quoting 54 minutes from Rouse Hill Town Centre to Wynyard right now.
That bus trip shows 15 stops out west along the way (are they all compulsory stops?), then express to the city. The metro journey time from Rouse Hill will be 46 minutes to Martin Place with 14 stops, with the extra attribute that it calls, all stops, at several other urban centres along the way. A Sydney Trains journey from the closest equivalent station, Schofields, to Wynyard is an hour with 11 stops, semi-express. I think one of these solutions comes out in front.
matthewg
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by matthewg »

tonyp wrote:
neilrex wrote:The trip planner is quoting 54 minutes from Rouse Hill Town Centre to Wynyard right now.
That bus trip shows 15 stops out west along the way (are they all compulsory stops?), then express to the city. The metro journey time from Rouse Hill will be 46 minutes to Martin Place with 14 stops, with the extra attribute that it calls, all stops, at several other urban centres along the way. A Sydney Trains journey from the closest equivalent station, Schofields, to Wynyard is an hour with 11 stops, semi-express. I think one of these solutions comes out in front.
You keep quoting Sydney Trains proven worst against a theoretical best for the Metro. Wait until the metro gets held up at each station by the same lack of passenger discipline that slows down Sydney Trains. And with no staff on the trains to scare the passengers into not blocking the doors, I can see a minute or two being lost at the busier stations while the doors try to close and keep reopening due to obstructions.

Sydney Trains drivers are probably quite capable of cutting 10 minutes or more of that run from Schofields to Wynyard, but they'd lose their job for trying in the current environment.
A driver on the Illawarra once told me he could keep to timetable without exceeding series-parallel power. (on an S set). Didn't need parallel or weak-field speed. Then he got bunged for not driving appropriately.
I've been told Sydney to Liverpool was faster with steam traction!

The government is knobbling Sydney Trains at the knees while talking up their driverless (thus none of those pesky RBTU members) alternative.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by tonyp »

And there I was thinking that I was showing one of Sydney Trains better runs! In all those comparisons I've compiled, for the longer journeys I've usually given Sydney/NSW Trains an advantage by quoting express and semi-express journeys. Only on the shorter runs do I do all-stations comparisons.

The irony is that even on express/ semi-express services, Sydney/NSW Trains can't match equivalent all-stops services on some interstate services and Sydney Metro. That's how slow they are. It would take a hell of a lot of speeding up (not only line speed but acceleration/deceleration) for them to catch up. In that comparison in the previous post, the 15 minute difference with four less stops represents a whopping difference to catch up on. Good luck with that.

Express services to Penrith and Campbelltown I can see a role for the double deckers, if they're allowed to be unleashed to their potential.
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BroadGauge
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by BroadGauge »

matthewg wrote:Sydney Trains drivers are probably quite capable of cutting 10 minutes or more of that run from Schofields to Wynyard, but they'd lose their job for trying in the current environment.

A driver on the Illawarra once told me he could keep to timetable without exceeding series-parallel power. (on an S set). Didn't need parallel or weak-field speed. Then he got bunged for not driving appropriately.
I've been told Sydney to Liverpool was faster with steam traction!

The government is knobbling Sydney Trains at the knees while talking up their driverless (thus none of those pesky RBTU members) alternative.
You are aware that the slowing of train timetables happened in the mid 2000s, under Bob Carr's Labor Government when Michael Costa was the Transport Minister, right? ;)

Some reading material on that subject:

http://www.aptnsw.org.au/tt2005.html
https://www.aptnsw.org.au/cgi-bin/item. ... 052834.txt
http://www.aptnsw.org.au/cityrail2009oct.html
Engineering
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by Engineering »

I have seen some documents that state NWRL is 37 km, and travel time is 37 min, hence average speed is 60 kph. There are documented speed tests of over 100 kph. But with acceleration, braking, and station dwell, is average 37 mins achievable?

With 22 trains, and 4 minute peak services, the round trip must be completed in 88 mins. We have seen videos of a fast turn around at Tallawong because it uses same platform in and out, but suspect CHatswood turnaround will be slower as train arrive on platform 2 then change tracks a little south and depart from platform 3

It will be tight.
Last edited by Engineering on Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by tonyp »

The closest comparable line in general profile and characteristics (except for being manually driven) to the NW line in Australia is the Joondalup line in Perth. From Perth station to Butler it is 40 km with ten intermediate stations (c.f. 11 on the NW line) and the journey is 35 minutes. So, yes, the NW metro would have no problem covering that distance in that time.

I don't see why the turnaround at Chatswood would be a probłem. There's no driver who has to walk to the other end of the train. It can be reversed instantly.
andy_centralcoast
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by andy_centralcoast »

This might be a stupid question, but how does the metro train computer know when everyone has finished alighting and boarding, and when it's safe to close the doors and proceed, assuming there are also no guards or CSAs flagging trains? Or do the metro train doors work more like an elevator door with sensors to stop it closing on people?
Scott4570
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by Scott4570 »

With 22 Metro Trains, 1 set will be in Maintenance each 24 hour period. In the Peak, 21 trains will operate.

Given a 37 minute total travel time each way, with Testing to confirm or prove otherwise.

In the Peak, there is a 2 minute turnaround at Tallawong, and a 8 minute turnaround at Chatswood.
Turnaround time allowance at Chatswood includes: 2 minutes to Empty the train, 2 minutes to Shunt forward, 1 minute for Computer to change direction, 1 minute to shunt to Departure Platform, and 2 minutes to Load.
moa999
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by moa999 »

So Tallawong is just operating as a single platform on open?

I'd have thought shunting and change of direction at Chatswood would be a bit under 4 minutes.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote:So Tallawong is just operating as a single platform on open?

I'd have thought shunting and change of direction at Chatswood would be a bit under 4 minutes.
It would be interesting to know the source of those figures as they seem overly long.
stupid_girl
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by stupid_girl »

andy_centralcoast wrote:This might be a stupid question, but how does the metro train computer know when everyone has finished alighting and boarding, and when it's safe to close the doors and proceed, assuming there are also no guards or CSAs flagging trains? Or do the metro train doors work more like an elevator door with sensors to stop it closing on people?
Certainly there should be sensors for re-opening the door. However, I also expect there to be a platform master giving electronic signal when the doors are ready to close (much cheaper to hire than a train driver).
neilrex
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by neilrex »

tonyp wrote:
neilrex wrote:The trip planner is quoting 54 minutes from Rouse Hill Town Centre to Wynyard right now.
That bus trip shows 15 stops out west along the way (are they all compulsory stops?), then express to the city. The metro journey time from Rouse Hill will be 46 minutes to Martin Place with 14 stops, with the extra attribute that it calls, all stops, at several other urban centres along the way. A Sydney Trains journey from the closest equivalent station, Schofields, to Wynyard is an hour with 11 stops, semi-express. I think one of these solutions comes out in front.
Seven Hills station, with more trains and a humungous carpark, would be a better alternative to Schofields.
neilrex
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Post by neilrex »

43 minutes on the creeper train from Gordon to Central at midday on Wednesday, with no train in front at any point. That must be a record for dawdling.
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