Manly Ferry Services...

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

Selling Freshwater and Collaroy (including foregoing the Freshwater refurbishment cost of $7 million, plus whatever is need to keep Collaroy up to condition and ongoing substantial extra operational and maintenance costs for both) would have pretty-much paid for two more Emeralds.
Linto63
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

For once the government aren't being complete philistines and allowing the bean counters in treasury to dictate its decision making, For that we should be grateful. Anyway it's done now, so wondering what might have been won't change things.
tonyp
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

It's not as simple as bean counting, it's delivering a significant improvement in a public transport service by making it faster and more frequent with no meaningful loss of capacity and no increase in fares.
Linto63
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

Every one's a winner then, those who want shiny new get their way, and those who want to retain a little bit of the past will also have something to hold on to. :D
tonyp
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

Then we should have a standard suburban set running around the rail system amongst normal services for those who want to ride it, a coupled P class set along the light rail lines and an OPD1 trundling along the bus routes.
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boronia
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

And people are prepared to pay premium prices for these nostalgic encounters.
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tonyp
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:14 pm And people are prepared to pay premium prices for these nostalgic encounters.
You'd have to pay me to get on an OPD1!
Linto63
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Then we should have a standard suburban set running around the rail system amongst normal services for those who want to ride it, a coupled P class set along the light rail lines and an OPD1 trundling along the bus routes.
No, because these would fall foul of multiple regulations, Freshwater class remain fully compliant.
In Transit
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by In Transit »

Whilst the heritage aspect of the Freshwaters is genuine, expenditure on them doesn't come from a heritage or tourist bucket - it directly reduces the money available for public transport services.

Not only that, they provide a slow, infrequent and very inefficient public transport option. For that reason, whilst I'll miss them, there's no doubt in my mind that moving the F1 towards a high frequency, faster service is the right thing to do. This isn't purely Treasury driven - its also better public transport service planning and delivery. It may be mourned by a few, in particular those who actually caught the Manly ferry less than once a year but are comforted knowing that it is there, but it should help in mode shift and generating increased patronage, which is what PT (and Sydney) needs.

The fundamental joy of a ferry on the harbour is not the ferry itself - its the ride on a beautiful harbour. That isn't going away, and frankly much of the capacity in a Freshwater is for seating where your view of the harbour is actually quite limited compared to say an Emerald Class.

Besides the perpetually outraged, the people of Manly have spoken with their feet. Pre Covid if you went to Manly wharf in the morning, the Freshwater's would leave practically empty, whilst a steady queue boarded the fast and frequent Manly Fast service. However Manly Fast has one limiting factor in its growth in my opinion - whilst you can pay with an Opal card, its not an integrated fare and there is no transfer rebate if you catch the bus/tram/train on either side of your ferry trip. That limits it's catchment to walk up passengers - so putting a ceiling on patronage growth. It's a slippery slope - after Sydney lagged most Australian cities for so many years with its Stone Age, unintegrated ticketing - to move back towards separate ticketing. After all, mostly thanks to the bizarre NSW approach of fares being recommended by economists at IPART instead of the agency actually responsible for PT policy and delivery, Sydney still hasn't quite moved away from different modal fares.. so any regressive step should be fought every way.
tonyp
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

^^ This. Well said In Transit.
Linto63
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

Based on the quoted savings of $6 million per annum, a drop in the ocean in a $33 billion transport spend. From a pure economic point of view, replacement of the Freshwaters is warranted, but sometimes the bottom line isn't the be-all and end-all. Although it took a hard line to start with, the government has come up with a workable compromise. Hard liners from both sides of the debate won't be totally satisfied, but ho-hum.

IPART have made many recommendations to sharply increase fares over the years, few are ever taken up. The only big recommendation the government has taken up in recent years was to close the more obvious Opal card rorts.
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by In Transit »

It's a bit disingenuous to talk about savings for the Freshwater's in the context of the entire transport budget - that's the approach of politicians and spin doctors. $33b is not the spend on PT services, and its certainly not the spend on ferry services. It's also a false logic - on that basis we'd be seeing extra services splashed around everywhere, as "it's not really much money". There is always opportunity cost, especially with the budget for services rather than that for capital spending.

I'll also repeat again, seeing as some want to continually reframe the Emerald vs Freshwater debate as purely an economic one - better public transport is usually more frequent, faster and more efficient. The last is still important from a service and policy perspective, as the more efficient it is, the more you get of it.

I don't have any problem with the government retaining two Freshwater's for weekend services, although I hope the opportunity cost isn't too great, and the better frequency of the Emerald service is delivered. I'll happily catch them, however I don't expect their retention will have any real positive impact on patronage.

IPART is a whole different debate, but the relevance to ferries is IPART's continual fascination with differential pricing between modes, and very blunt instruments around transfers. To be fair, it's not only IPART that thinks this way - the Sydney transport bureaucracy's culture never really entered the late 20th century, so they missed quite a few developments that seem only natural elsewhere.
Linto63
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

In Transit wrote: $33b is not the spend on PT services, and its certainly not the spend on ferry services.
Never said $33 billion was the spend on day-to-day PT services, but that is the amount budgeted transport spend, both recurring and capital, per the budget papers.

I would imagine the higher fares on ferries are a reflection of higher operating costs and an attempt to recover costs at a similar rate to other modes. Those using ferries as as part of their daily commute tend to live in harbourside suburbs with higher average incomes.
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boronia
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

I went down to CQ this morning and watched the 11:00 Manly service with Freshwater loading. A beautiful day on the harbour and expecting crowds out enjoying their "freedom Sunday". At 1O.50 it had taken on about 150 passengers.

I then caught the 11:07 F3 service to Parramatta. Another usually popular run, it took on about 20 at CQ, and a similar number at Barang. A few set downs and pick ups along the way, but we lost most pax at Cockatoo Island and Olympic Park. Less than 20 got off at Parramatta.
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Glen
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Glen »

I don't think (local) tourism numbers will get back to anything like normal until masks are no longer required on public transport.

It still says 'danger' to me.
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Bus 400
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Bus 400 »

Does anyone know what the long term plans are for Manly Wharf?

So yesterday, an Emerald ferry unloaded at the MFF dock, reversed out. Let the MFF unload, load & leave late. Then the Emerald ferry returned, loaded & left late. We arrived into Circular Quay on time. But leaving 10 minutes late doesn't look good.
I'm assuming only the Freshwater Class ferries can access side A.

Something else I'm curious of. Why would the outside front of Emerald ferries be closed off on the Many trip? Surely it'd be easier to fall off the back than the front crossing heads.
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boronia
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

Bus 400 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:41 pm Something else I'm curious of. Why would the outside front of Emerald ferries be closed off on the Many trip? Surely it'd be easier to fall off the back than the front crossing heads.
Perhaps more chance of getting wet at the front?

The inner harbour ferries have signs warning that Transdev is not responsible for any inconvenience from spray.
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by BroadGauge »

Glen wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:33 pm I don't think (local) tourism numbers will get back to anything like normal until masks are no longer required on public transport.

It still says 'danger' to me.
There's much less enjoyment to be had sitting on the outside deck of a ferry on a warm day when you have an uncomfortable mask strapped to your face, so that instead of feeling the breeze you end up sweating away.

Unfortunately the government's current roadmap has no plan for if or when that restriction will ever be eased, although I suspect that compliance with it will be poor during the upcoming summer.
Linto63
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

Bus 400 wrote: Does anyone know what the long term plans are for Manly Wharf?
Given that the speed advantage held by the MFF will disappear, presumably it will cease with the Freshwaters continuing to use the western side and the Transdev cats the eastern side.
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by STMPainter2018 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:18 pm Then we should have a standard suburban set running around the rail system amongst normal services for those who want to ride it, a coupled P class set along the light rail lines and an OPD1 trundling along the bus routes.
Well the F1 does run on the network now during many special events thanks to Howard Collins and the W3 will join soon too. Also you're more likely to have an R1 class tram run along the light rail lines than a P cause it's a corridor car. The practicalities of such an idea on the L2/L3 could be overcome; more so than the L1.
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

While it could be done, would probably require significant modifications to allow a legacy tram to operate on the modern light rail network. And with an operational tram museum at Loftus, there is already a perfect operating environment in Sydney. No heritage railway has, or is ever likely to have, the infrastructure on which electric trains can run, so the current network is the only place they will ever be able to operate,
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Transtopic »

Melbourne has its heritage tram service on its City Circle.
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Transtopic »

Transtopic wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:52 pm Melbourne has its heritage tram service on its City Circle. Now back to ferries.
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

The W class trams in Melbourne have evolved as the network has been modified, having remained in continuous use, save for a few short periods when withdrawn for safety modifications. The historical and current Sydney networks are chalk and cheese.
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Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

As suggested two posts ago this thread should go back to Manly Ferries - the tram discussion is totally off topic.
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