Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state
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385BUZ
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Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by 385BUZ »

I thought I would create these threads for discussion and observations of the body builders in Australia as there is currently no particular place for this.
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1whoknows
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by 1whoknows »

Another new Scania for Mcharry in Geelong was noted 12/20 awaiting delivery at Express.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by stajourneyman »

Was sighted on New Years Day at Scania Coffs Harbour.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by scott »

Just noticed on the Express Facebook page a picture of a new Scania coach built for McHarrys (probably the one mentioned above with a wheelchair lifter fitted (a video of the wheelchair lifter is included).

https://www.facebook.com/expresscoachbuilders.com.au/

Looking at the dash shot,I was wondering if you could still get a bus with the old style rocker switches rather than the fancy push button panels/touch screens that some newer buses have?
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Centralian
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by Centralian »

Would anyone have an image of what a current P&D body looks like. They seem to build mainly on the Hino RN8J chassis,
but looking back through images on Bus Australia site they all seem to be at least 10 year or older bodies.

I suspect probably still basically churning out the same design, but not much publicity material or images out there.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by stajourneyman »

Can anybody clarify the differences between a Customs 510 and 516 body?

The Hillsbus batch are 510s whereas the STA ones are 516s, although they seem to be identical in appearance.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by Lt. Commander Data »

From Scania Facebook page:
Fifteen years into a successful partnership, Scania and Chinese bus and coach builder Higer take another big step together. This week the new bus range Scania Fencer makes its world premiere in Great Britain. The collaboration is based on Higer contributing with knowledge and expertise regarding bodywork, while Scania contributes with chassis and experience of international customers' requirements. Together with Higer, Scania's designer team has given the vehicles a clear Scania expression.
“With the new Scania Fencer range in our offer we will strengthen our position in the market and keep driving the shift towards a sustainable transport system,” says Anna Carmo E Silva, Head of Buses & Coaches at Scania.
FBAA0FE2-BE64-4499-9FD1-D885C3229815.jpeg
https://www.facebook.com/54429853887/p ... ry_index=0
As it’s a European design, I presume it would be too wide for our road laws for it to be legal here. Although I wonder if we’ll see a similar situation to the Omnicity / Volgren CR224L?
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tonyp
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Lt. Commander Data wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 9:14 pm
As it’s a European design, I presume it would be too wide for our road laws for it to be legal here. Although I wonder if we’ll see a similar situation to the Omnicity / Volgren CR224L?
It's for the UK market. What's the bus width there? They're using the same approach as Bustech with a standardised "one body, three power trains" design that accommodates diesel, hybrid or electric drive. It has the same fundamental flaw: that it's designed for an underfloor diesel engine, thus it's a low-entry (high floor at the back) bus only. Electric and fuel cell buses don't require a high floor and since these are the propulsion systems of the future, it seems ludicrous to design a body for a powerplant that's being phased out, leaving a compromised design as the platform for present and future electric drives.

On the European continent they've had fully low floor diesel buses for years so there has been no problem using the same bodies for electric drive. In Australia, Custom and Volgren are able to provide both a low floor body for electric buses and a low-entry body for diesels (plus in the case of Volgren, for BYD which doesn't do a low-floor chassis). Other manufacturers here are still sub par on electric buses.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

In case anybody is wondering what the German manufacturers are up to in the E-bus revolution, Mercedes Benz is proudly upholding its Chariots of Fire tradition. It all started on a positive note in Hannover:

https://eblog.mercedes-benz-passion.com ... n-hanover/

Then sort of went deep fried:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLApiqKwAGQ

Nine buses were destroyed - five new e-Citaros, two hybrids, a diesel bus and a coach. The charging infrastructure was also destroyed and the heat was so intense that the fire brigade employed a robotic tender (I guess the bus equivalent of a bomb squad's robots!). The fire started in bus batteries. I guess one lesson is don't charge your buses inside a building and keep them away from other buses. I guess we'll be seeing some large acreage open bus depots in future.

This sort of thing never happened with trolleybuses. If it ain't broke....
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by boronia »

scott wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:45 pm Just noticed on the Express Facebook page a picture of a new Scania coach built for McHarrys (probably the one mentioned above with a wheelchair lifter fitted (a video of the wheelchair lifter is included).

https://www.facebook.com/expresscoachbuilders.com.au/

Looking at the dash shot,I was wondering if you could still get a bus with the old style rocker switches rather than the fancy push button panels/touch screens that some newer buses have?
Usually, body builders will supply what the customer asks for, provided it is compatible with the chassis's inbuilt electronics.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:33 am Nine buses were destroyed - five new e-Citaros, two hybrids, a diesel bus and a coach. The charging infrastructure was also destroyed and the heat was so intense that the fire brigade employed a robotic tender (I guess the bus equivalent of a bomb squad's robots!). The fire started in bus batteries. I guess one lesson is don't charge your buses inside a building and keep them away from other buses. I guess we'll be seeing some large acreage open bus depots in future.
I wondered what an electric bus fire might look like. A lithium-fuelled fire would be rather more dramatic than a CNG fuelled one, me thinks.

Your point about covered buildings is interesting. What will that mean for the many 'garages' in the UK where buses are usually kept undercover?
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

I think the greatest likelihood of a fire is during charging and this bus was being charged inside a garage. Charging facilities need to be out in the open which is what is happening in Australia. I don't know how they're going to handle that across Europe with buses typically being garaged (winter snow issue) and charging needing to be overnight. There's a need for a lot of outdoor space. However, it's possible to have open canopies over charging stations.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Given the emergence of the Dutch electric bus builder Ebusco onto the local scene, it's of interest to see some reports on their 3.0 model which is the one proposed for the Australian market. From the Hungarian bus portal Magyarbusz (translated):

https://magyarbusz.info/2021/07/25/haza ... -szeriaja/
The first major series of Ebusco 3.0 is unveiled in its home country
Author: Patthy GellértDate: July 25, 2021Category: News, Outlook
Print Email

If all goes according to plan, from the spring of 2022 we will be able to meet the first major series of Ebusco carbon fiber reinforced composite body buses in daily passenger traffic, after Transdev Nederland has placed an order for 39 units in a few days. These will be the first mass-produced copies of the 3.0 model, which many say represent the future of bus manufacturing, in the Netherlands.

The Dutch branch of the Transdev Group recently took over a new concession in the catchment area of ​​the city of Hilversum in the northern part of the country. A contract for the supply of Ebusco composite body buses was also signed at its launch ceremony on 11 July, as a significant part of the winning lines will be served by a company formerly known as Connexxion (the remaining wagons will be supplied by VDL). Although the mandate until December 2030 originally covered the operation of electric buses, in the first narrow year, flights will still be issued with diesel-powered models, as the official justification is that production of electric buses will be delayed due to the pandemic (although Ebuscos have only been officially ordered). Nevertheless, the diesel buses, which are now still under duress, will be handing over to zero-emission offspring from next spring. Members of the new Ebusco fleet are scheduled to appear in both urban and regional traffic in the Gooi en Vechtstreek region from April 2022, with an average of about 110,000 kilometers per year on routes operated by Transdev Nederland. The vehicles will be manufactured entirely in the Netherlands at Ebusco's Deurne plant.

In addition to the Ebusco 3.0 debate, created with the help of aeronautical engineers and using technologies there, was one of the sensations of the 2019 Busworld Europe exhibition in Brussels, the professional jury also awarded the Dutch electric bus with an innovation award that evokes envious looks from much of the competition. After that, the publicity around the type faded a bit for a while, but the work was still going on in the background, and now it looks like Ebusco’s savior is finally ripe for series production. The copies ordered by Transdev will, according to official visual designs, come with a 1-2-0 door layout never seen before on the model, which is mainly suited to suburban use. They will also be equipped with air conditioning, on-board WiFi and an army of USB charging points. According to the manufacturer, the 3.0 model weighs 25% less on the scales than its steel-framed competitors in the configuration chosen by Transdev. From this follow directly the main strengths of the type, namely the higher capacity with higher capacity, lower specific power consumption and the same battery capacity, but the manufacturer also promises a longer service life than its rivals in the case of the body.

Thanks to the innovative design, Dutch electric buses can cover up to 575 kilometers on a single charge, which puts the type at the forefront of the category in this area. Ebusco has been gathering experience in electric buses and their chargers for nine years now. According to Peter Bijvelds, CEO of the company, lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4, also known as LFP) chemical traction batteries used in their buses (which are known to come from a Chinese supplier, but who exactly listens to Ebusco consistently) are currently the best and safest technology available. on the market. The energy storage stored in the floor will be charged with a plug-in charger at four different locations, Transdev Nederland says the electricity needed for this will be generated from local wind and solar power plants. Of course, a locally emission-free drive system has a direct direct effect on ambient air quality. Ebusco calculates that the operation of each electric bus will reduce CO2 emissions by approximately 1 kilogram per kilometer, meaning that more than 30 million kilograms less CO2 will be released into the air over the entire concession period.
Background on the Ebusco 3.0:

https://www.electrive.com/2019/10/14/eb ... ore-range/
https://aeva.asn.au/directories/ebusco/
https://www.busnews.com.au/product-news ... ebusco-3-0
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Not quite the news of an E-Citaro possibly making it down under however I thought I'd share this article from Australasian Bus & Coach.
https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... -12m-e-bus
AUSSIE ORDERS 'ACCEPTED' FOR NEW GERMAN 12M E-BUS
Date: 16.09.2021

EXCLUSIVE: A NEW 12-metre electric bus – available as battery-electric (comparable to conventional diesel bus pricing) or as fuel-cell electric versions – will be made available to Australian operators, upon orders received, German e-mobility specialist Quantron confirms.

AUSSIE ORDERS 'ACCEPTED' FOR NEW GERMAN 12M E-BUS
Both the batteries (CATL) and the fuel cells (Ballard Power) come from the world's leading manufacturers of the respective technologies, Quantron confirms.
The "proven" Quantron 12-metre low-floor city bus can be ordered as early as the end of 2021 in battery-electric variant, and as a fuel-cell electric vehicle from European spring, 2022, it states.

"Our 12-metre bus will be also available as right-hand drive (RHD), so yes, we will also accept orders from Down Under," replied Quantron spokesperson Volker Seitz, when ABC magazine asked if there was any chance its new e-bus would ever made it to Australian shores - regulations permitted.

"We will publish more details in November," he added, which will include revealing the official name of the new bus.

"Our batteries are from the world-wide-leading and largest manufacturer, CATL [China]; By the way, CATL also supplies Daimler and other leading OEMs.

When asked what scope there was for local body builders to be added to the Quantron product, Volker answered: "Our fuel cells [are] from [Canada’s] Ballard Power and we sell the complete bus to our customers (and are open [to] if local manufacturers ask for [just the] e-chassis)."

ALL INVOLVED
The vehicle is offered in close cooperation with Quantron investor and strategic partner Ev Dynamics, a European-Asian consortium of companies specialising in electric and hydrogen-based mobility, it explains.

Both the batteries (CATL) and the fuel cells (Ballard Power) come from the world's leading manufacturers of the respective technologies, Quantron confirms.

Ev Dynamics CEO Miguel Valldecabres Polop, explained: "Several thousand buses have already been produced. These have been operating successfully in Asia for years."

PERFORMANCE NOTES
With fully electric drive, the bus achieves a maximum output of 250kW, the company states. The range is up to 300km, making the vehicle ideal for daily urban use, it adds.

Charging power is up to 80kW with a battery capacity of up to 422kWh, according to Quantron.

In terms of charging, the battery receives charge via a European-standard plug CCS 2 within three to six hours, depending on the battery size, it explains. Thus, this city bus is fully operational after overnight charging, it adds.

The battery system itself is adapted to the respective operational requirements and is compatible with various charging solutions, Quantron confirms.

Inside, the bus has a capacity for up to 95 passengers. The equipment for optimum passenger and driver comfort, as well as the interior and exterior design, are available in a range of specifications and styles to meet individual customer requirements, it adds.

ABOUT QUANTRON
Quantron AG is a system provider of clean battery and hydrogen-powered e-mobility for commercial vehicles such as trucks, buses and vans, it states.

In addition to new electric vehicles, the range of services offered by the ‘innovation forge’ includes the electrification of used and existing vehicles; the creation of individual overall concepts including the appropriate charging infrastructure, as well as rental, financing and leasing offers and driver training, it explains.

Quantron AG also sells batteries and integrated customised electrification concepts to manufacturers of commercial vehicles, machinery, and intralogistics vehicles, it adds.

Based in Augsburg, Bavaria, in Germany, Quantron is a pioneer and innovation driver for e-mobility in passenger, transport and freight traffic, it says. It has a network of 700 service partners and the comprehensive knowledge of qualified experts in the fields of power electronics and battery technology through its cooperation with CATL, the world's largest battery producer, it states.

Quantron AG, as a high-tech spin-off of the renowned Haller GmbH, combines 138 years of commercial vehicle experience with state-of-the-art e-mobility know-how, the company explains.

SPECS
NAME: Quantron 12-metre low-floor bus (BEV)*

WEIGHT: Permissible total - 19500kg

PERFORMANCE: Maximum power – 250kW; Maximum torque - 3400Nm

BATTERY: Range (BEV bersion) - 160-300km; Capacity - 242/281/363/422kWh; Charging time - 3-6 hours; Maximum charging power - 80kW

INTERIOR: Passenger capacity - 71-95
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Mercedes-Benz Electric bus coming to Australia in 2022

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... -australia
Daimler’s electro-mobility plans for the Southern Hemisphere have taken a massive – and long anticipated – leap forward with Mercedes-Benz announcing it is importing an e-bus chassis in 2022 for the Australian bus market.

MERCEDES-BENZ ELECTRIC BUS CHASSIS: 2022 IN AUSTRALIA
Prototype buses using the new electric chassis are currently being tested in Germany and Brazil, MB Australia confirms.
Announced at a time many new and established global OEMs are showing keen interest to bring in tailored electric bus product into Australia, the low-floor zero-emissions Mercedes-Benz electric city bus chassis will be available here in the last quarter of next year, MB confirms.

Image

The Mercedes-Benz electric city bus chassis is suitable for locally made bus bodies up to 13.2 metres in length, it clarifies.

The electric bus chassis development was led by and recently revealed by Mercedes-Benz in Brazil, where it will be built for the Latin America, Europe and Oceania markets, it says.

With the electric motor integrated into the rear axle, the electric chassis is equipped with an EBS electronic braking and energy recovery system, MB explains.

Prototype buses using the new electric chassis are currently being tested in Germany and Brazil, MB Australia confirms.


BRAND TRUST
The Australian-specification electric city bus chassis will have a range of more than 300km and can be fully charged in little more than three hours, Mercedes-Benz states.

Daimler Truck and Bus Australia Pacific president and CEO Daniel Whitehead says Australian customers will welcome an electric bus chassis from a brand they can trust.

"Daimler is proud to offer customers advanced electric solutions for trucks and buses that have been properly developed, tried and tested in order to deliver the class-leading quality and performance expected from our trusted brands," he said.

"Our customers are excited about a Mercedes-Benz bus that emits zero local emissions and is perfect for operation both in the regions and cities and suburbs with high pedestrian density. We know the Mercedes-Benz electric city bus chassis will deliver exactly what they have asked for," Whitehead added.
Image

INTEGRATION SUPPORT
As part of its electric bus chassis package, Mercedes-Benz will also offer a consultancy service to help customers with everything required to integrate the new vehicles into their existing fleet including energy supply, battery recharge infrastructure and fleet operation planning, the company explains.

The electric bus chassis product will also be supported by, "…the vast Mercedes-Benz dealership network that spans the country," it adds.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by Enviro 500 »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:36 pm Mercedes-Benz Electric bus coming to Australia in 2022

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... -australia
Daimler’s electro-mobility plans for the Southern Hemisphere have taken a massive – and long anticipated – leap forward with Mercedes-Benz announcing it is importing an e-bus chassis in 2022 for the Australian bus market.

MERCEDES-BENZ ELECTRIC BUS CHASSIS: 2022 IN AUSTRALIA
Prototype buses using the new electric chassis are currently being tested in Germany and Brazil, MB Australia confirms.
Announced at a time many new and established global OEMs are showing keen interest to bring in tailored electric bus product into Australia, the low-floor zero-emissions Mercedes-Benz electric city bus chassis will be available here in the last quarter of next year, MB confirms.

Image

The Mercedes-Benz electric city bus chassis is suitable for locally made bus bodies up to 13.2 metres in length, it clarifies.

The electric bus chassis development was led by and recently revealed by Mercedes-Benz in Brazil, where it will be built for the Latin America, Europe and Oceania markets, it says.

With the electric motor integrated into the rear axle, the electric chassis is equipped with an EBS electronic braking and energy recovery system, MB explains.

Prototype buses using the new electric chassis are currently being tested in Germany and Brazil, MB Australia confirms.


BRAND TRUST
The Australian-specification electric city bus chassis will have a range of more than 300km and can be fully charged in little more than three hours, Mercedes-Benz states.

Daimler Truck and Bus Australia Pacific president and CEO Daniel Whitehead says Australian customers will welcome an electric bus chassis from a brand they can trust.

"Daimler is proud to offer customers advanced electric solutions for trucks and buses that have been properly developed, tried and tested in order to deliver the class-leading quality and performance expected from our trusted brands," he said.

"Our customers are excited about a Mercedes-Benz bus that emits zero local emissions and is perfect for operation both in the regions and cities and suburbs with high pedestrian density. We know the Mercedes-Benz electric city bus chassis will deliver exactly what they have asked for," Whitehead added.
Image

INTEGRATION SUPPORT
As part of its electric bus chassis package, Mercedes-Benz will also offer a consultancy service to help customers with everything required to integrate the new vehicles into their existing fleet including energy supply, battery recharge infrastructure and fleet operation planning, the company explains.

The electric bus chassis product will also be supported by, "…the vast Mercedes-Benz dealership network that spans the country," it adds.
Better than the Volvo 7900?
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

The BZL is the Volvo chassis for the Australian market. Similar to the 7900. The Citaro will be much the same, no better.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by bussie »

Enviro 500 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:28 pm
ScaniaGrenda wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:36 pm Mercedes-Benz Electric bus coming to Australia in 2022

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... -australia

Better than the Volvo 7900?
Considering they just had another eCitaro starting a fire that spread throughout the whole depot in Stuttgart, I would say no, and that its more of a lemon. Thats the second depot fire caused by an eCitaro thus far.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 2766924514
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

One of the comments on the post mentions that it's the third such fire. The Germans will be burning off electric buses faster than they can produce them at this rate.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:19 am One of the comments on the post mentions that it's the third such fire. The Germans will be burning off electric buses faster than they can produce them at this rate.
Mercedes-Benz have clearly decided there is now a market for a zero-emissions combustible bus, following on from the tremendous success of their "Chariots of Fire" artics in London, and "Exploding* Gas Buses" in Perth and Sydney... :mrgreen:

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a Lithium-ion battery pack going up in flames. Nor would you want to be near a Hydrogen bus (anyone remember the Hindenburg?) if that went up.
It will be interesting to see the media hysteria in a city like Perth, who has a long history with bus fires, if an electric bus goes up in flames.

* Yes, we all know that isn't actually true, and the media did as they always do; not let the facts get in the way of a good story!
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

The Europeans are in a bit of a tight situation having to house their buses in garages (because of snow presumably), so when there's a fire, a lot of buses are lost. With outdoor parking, the damage should be confined to the bus itself or, at worst, the buses on either side. The battery-electric bus promoters spent a lot of time disparaging trolleybuses to boost up their wondrous new product, but trolleybuses never suffered from this problem. Just sayin'
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Merc1107 wrote: Mercedes-Benz have clearly decided there is now a market for a zero-emissions combustible bus, following on from the tremendous success of their "Chariots of Fire" artics in London!
Given that it happened 15 years ago, and only in one city to a bus that has gone on to be the highest selling bus of all time (in its rigid form), think we can put it down as a one-off.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by boronia »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:28 am
tonyp wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:19 am One of the comments on the post mentions that it's the third such fire. The Germans will be burning off electric buses faster than they can produce them at this rate.
Mercedes-Benz have clearly decided there is now a market for a zero-emissions combustible bus, following on from the tremendous success of their "Chariots of Fire" artics in London, and "Exploding* Gas Buses" in Perth and Sydney... :mrgreen:

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a Lithium-ion battery pack going up in flames. Nor would you want to be near a Hydrogen bus (anyone remember the Hindenburg?) if that went up.
It will be interesting to see the media hysteria in a city like Perth, who has a long history with bus fires, if an electric bus goes up in flames.

* Yes, we all know that isn't actually true, and the media did as they always do; not let the facts get in the way of a good story!
Let's not forget those "electric" Boeing aeroplanes that had a propensity for self combustion a few years ago.

I saw an article recently about a fire department in Europe that has a special "appliance" for dealing with battery fires in cars. It is a large skip bin full of water; the car has to be lifted into the skip and fully submerged until the battery is cool enough to stop burning.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:23 am
Merc1107 wrote: Mercedes-Benz have clearly decided there is now a market for a zero-emissions combustible bus, following on from the tremendous success of their "Chariots of Fire" artics in London!
Given that it happened 15 years ago, and only in one city to a bus that has gone on to be the highest selling bus of all time (in its rigid form), think we can put it down as a one-off.
For goodness sake, don't be so serious. It was a light-hearted joke.
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Re: Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

Post by Enviro 500 »

tonyp wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:03 am The Europeans are in a bit of a tight situation having to house their buses in garages (because of snow presumably), so when there's a fire, a lot of buses are lost. With outdoor parking, the damage should be confined to the bus itself or, at worst, the buses on either side. The battery-electric bus promoters spent a lot of time disparaging trolleybuses to boost up their wondrous new product, but trolleybuses never suffered from this problem. Just sayin'
The worst fire I remember involved 6 double deckers allocated to the same route that got burnt when one of them caught fire which then spread to the others. Among the casualties was a demonstrator Volvo Super Olympian bodied by Volgren and fitted with a ZF transmission (other units came with Voith) and a relatively new Volvo B9TL.
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