Bustech Discussion / Observations

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state
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Lt. Commander Data
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by Lt. Commander Data »

tonyp wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:24 pm Is anybody in Adelaide able to give me the seating and standing capacity figures for the Bustech ZDi electric bus running on the free city loop in Adelaide thanks? I presume these figures will be on the back of the bus.
SA has no requirement for a maximum on passenger numbers per vehicle, thus no figures on the back like other states have
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Lt. Commander Data wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:47 pm
SA has no requirement for a maximum on passenger numbers per vehicle, thus no figures on the back like other states have
Thank you. Sounds very third-worldish! Aren't they worried about axle loads? Anyway, I've got down 41 for seats.

Actually sounds quite enlightened and makes a mockery of nitpicking over such figures in the east. I thought these axle load standards for heavy vehicles were national.

There are the manufacturers figures as a guideline, otherwise when the bus fills up it fills up. In Europe 12 metre buses are specified at up to 100 passengers, but at that stage, like trains or any other vehicle, it's down to the number of doors as to how practical this is. I think the average Australian two-door 12 metre bus would be considered pretty stuffed full at 80 passengers and if it's not to become totally dysfunctional (slow passenger exchange with long dwells while people fight their way on and off through two doors), then 70 is a more practical maximum for such a bus.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

W.A. does not post licensed capacity on a bus' exterior either, only on the front bulkhead. Private operators may choose a different approach.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

I picked up this in a media search - Bustech electric bus for Clarks in Logan:

https://www.clarkslogancity.com.au/news ... tric-buses

More detail on electric bus trials in Queensland in Brisbane thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=91427
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Another little dribble of information on the Mk2 ZDi. They talk about selling 60 to NSW.

https://amtil.com.au/bustechgroup-electric-bus-amtil/
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

At last, a little bit of insight into the Bustech ZDi in Adelaide, a bus most of us have waited more than three years to see while unknown issues were sorted (I'm guessing range, as they've now announced a new battery system). Unfortunately, the camera in these videos hides below seats most of the time, but in the middle of the third video there is finally a bit of a pan around. The bus has two double-leaf doors with fully low floor, which is commendable, but the typical Bustech issue with the window line vs seats is evident in its full glory. A bus with windows that seated passengers can't see out of? You couldn't make it up. What were they thinking?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjTz6vE7i7c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCjpSt2KYw0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY-TzmHN92o

It's very difficult to get a reliable external photo of the bus as other Bustech models look similar. It's also pretty certain that the mk 2 ZDi on the east coast is going to be somewhat different, but the details we don't know yet.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by boeing »

I took a shot inside an STA ZDI trial bus, seem it doesn’t have the face to face rear seats.

https://postimg.cc/vxbnGzfR
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by BusFan23 »

boeing wrote:I took a shot inside an STA ZDI trial bus, seem it doesn’t have the face to face rear seats.

https://postimg.cc/vxbnGzfR
That’s not a BusTech ZDi. It’s a Custom Denning Element
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by boeing »

Yikes, you’re right, I’m an idiot.
Sorry.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

boeing wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:29 pm Yikes, you’re right, I’m an idiot.
Sorry.
No you're not, it's easy to do! Photos of the ZDi prototype are hard to come by but it won't really matter soon as there'll be a new production model. That is if Bustech doesn't either give up or head back to the drawing board after they were given a drive of the Element on the Gold Coast yesterday!
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Here is a photo from a Bustech presentation in 2017:
ZDi a.png
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by BusFan23 »

I’m not a huge fan of how the Custom Denning Element looks. Hopefully the BusTech ZDi MK II will look better
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

BusFan23 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:36 pm I’m not a huge fan of how the Custom Denning Element looks. Hopefully the BusTech ZDi MK II will look better
The Element's styling is related to its functionality as a bus, with a focus on its passengers, ensuring for example that they can see out the windows and don't have to struggle with stairs in the gangway. Note the clear, uncluttered space (horizontal and vertical) and the light throughout the bus:

_DSC1451.jpg
_DSC1451.jpg (88.01 KiB) Viewed 3728 times

Bustech prioritises style over function. As a result passengers often struggle to see out the windows and have to deal with stairs in doorways and aisles, though in the case of the prototype ZDi there is at least a flat floor, which is a good point. However, the window-line is atrocious from a functional point-of-view. Besides passengers at the front not being able to see outside (the ZDi is the same as this XDi), note here the general gloomy, cramped and cluttered space towards the back:

AdelaideBustech.jpg
AdelaideBustech.jpg (24.37 KiB) Viewed 3728 times

These two buses are textbook examples of good design vs bad design. What's really more important in a city bus? Style or function?

I would also ask whether Adelaide did the right thing abandoning Custom for Bustech? More pertinently, are many Australian bus operators so insensitive to functionality and passenger comfort that they don't see these issues when making fleet purchasing decisions?
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by BusFan23 »

I think that Custom do produce a more functional and bright/airy design. I’ve always found the BusTechs dark and a bit busy. I just feel that the Element is a bit less elegant than the Endeavour. The ZDi is more style over function, as said before, and I hope that they can address this.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

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I believe a main part of Bustech winning the Adelaide contract was that they would produce them in Adelaide.

As far as I know, Custom-Denning were going to produce in Sydney and ship over.

No doubt this would have increased the cost, but more importantly lost the political upper hand of “keeping jobs local”
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by BusFan23 »

Lt. Commander Data wrote:I believe a main part of Bustech winning the Adelaide contract was that they would produce them in Adelaide.

As far as I know, Custom-Denning were going to produce in Sydney and ship over.

No doubt this would have increased the cost, but more importantly lost the political upper hand of “keeping jobs local”
100% agree. Local jobs are important and Custom have come and gone from Adelaide. Does anyone know where the 2016/2017/2018 CB80s were produced? I’m unsure if they were locally built.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

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Of course the old Custom was down and out as a company and couldn't have tendered for the contract that Bustech won anyway. However, the new Custom Denning concern still has premises in Adelaide and intends to market the Element nationally and, doubtless, if an order was large enough, it would offer local manufacture/assembly. The market for electric buses is going to be huge in the coming decade and anybody who secures large orders will be setting up local shop where necesssary. Apart from Bustech itself, Volgren will be a serious entrant to the electric market with a new product from 2022. I reckon SA has not seen the last of Custom Denning and may see a push from Volgren as well. Both companies produce seriously superior designs to Bustech and I can't see Bustech having such a good hold onto the national market into the future if it stays on its present design course.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

It would be interesting to know what level of complaints the poor windowline in the Bustech offerings generate from passengers; particularly from mobility-impaired persons who cannot mountaineer up to the back seats.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

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Merc1107 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:26 pm It would be interesting to know what level of complaints the poor windowline in the Bustech offerings generate from passengers; particularly from mobility-impaired persons who cannot mountaineer up to the back seats.
That's a really good point. I've always found that the BusTech window line causes me problems when sitting further to the front of the bus (especially because of the stippled stainless steel on the walls). I then have a different problem near the rear of the bus where there is the anti-graffiti dot pattern on the windows. It plays with my eyes.

I just don't find the BusTechs that comfortable. I tend to lean against the wall of the bus, but that is difficult on the VSTs because of the increased gap/space between the seat and wall.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

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The characteristic Bustech rising window line came from its VST/XDi design with the rising floor that sloped from front up to the rear. The casualty of this design was that the centre door has steps in an age when stepless doors have been standard accepted practice for two or three decades. What's happened in Adelaide is that Admet insisted on a standard low-entry design with stepless doors. However, Bustech didn't alter the window line on the prototypes to match this. In addition, they designed an electric bus that had a full low floor but again they kept the rising window line. Public feedback resulted in Bustech lowering the window line on the Adelaide low-entry buses so that more people can see out the windows, but it's still far from perfect. After a couple of decades, it gets to the point where one wonders whether Bustech will ever master the art and science of designing a bus. Their latest chance is the upcoming Mk2 ZDi electric bus. We'll see if they get it right this time.
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Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by BusFan23 »

It seems to me that the BusTech design team are focusing form over function. The window line isn’t practical, and there’s little things throughout the bus that make it feel cluttered and overthought. It’s definitely a busy interior on the Adelaide VSTs.

I’m interested to see how the BusTech artic looks and functions once it enters service. Any update on the artic by any chance?

Al that governments really look for when buying buses is cost, local content and jobs, and that’s about it. USB ports and internal signage I’m sure are just extra little bonuses for the public that helps get them onboard.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

BusFan23 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:47 pm It seems to me that the BusTech design team are focusing form over function. The window line isn’t practical, and there’s little things throughout the bus that make it feel cluttered and overthought. It’s definitely a busy interior on the Adelaide VSTs.

I’m interested to see how the BusTech artic looks and functions once it enters service. Any update on the artic by any chance?

Al that governments really look for when buying buses is cost, local content and jobs, and that’s about it. USB ports and internal signage I’m sure are just extra little bonuses for the public that helps get them onboard.
From this video, it looks like their artic is a Combo - low entry at the front for the first two doors then high floor for the rest including a door with stairs in the trailer. The sloping window-line is still there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tjjNRpU28g

Government transport agencies should also be setting minimum design standards relating to the operational efficiency and passenger comfort of buses (including stepless entries as a minimum). This appears to be the case in WA, SA (apart from the Combo exception) and Brisbane City Council. For the rest of Queensland, NSW, ACT and Tasmania, it seems that the agencies couldn't care less and these are the jurisdictions where the standard Bustech designs find their biggest markets. It's almost like Bustech has been given an obstacle-free pass to get into those markets. Possibly some good salesmanship at work. It's somewhat unfair on those manufacturers who uphold better design standards and have to compete against a manufacturer with a handicap advantage.
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

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tonyp wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:03 pm Of course the old Custom was down and out as a company and couldn't have tendered for the contract that Bustech won anyway. However, the new Custom Denning concern still has premises in Adelaide and intends to market the Element nationally and, doubtless, if an order was large enough, it would offer local manufacture/assembly. The market for electric buses is going to be huge in the coming decade and anybody who secures large orders will be setting up local shop where necesssary. Apart from Bustech itself, Volgren will be a serious entrant to the electric market with a new product from 2022. I reckon SA has not seen the last of Custom Denning and may see a push from Volgren as well. Both companies produce seriously superior designs to Bustech and I can't see Bustech having such a good hold onto the national market into the future if it stays on its present design course.
While you may be correct in saying SA hasn’t seen the last of CD or Volgren, the SA Government does have a 10 year contract with Bustech. So I’d doubt we will see anything other than BusTech until at least 2030
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Lt. Commander Data wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:19 pm
While you may be correct in saying SA hasn’t seen the last of CD or Volgren, the SA Government does have a 10 year contract with Bustech. So I’d doubt we will see anything other than BusTech until at least 2030
Yes, quite correct and the same would apply to Tasmania where they've been presented with a design in which, if decided, the diesel engines can be pulled out and replaced with electric drive. (What you do with 100+ redundant near-new diesel engines I can't imagine!)

Is there an option in the SA contract to substitute electric buses for diesel buses if required, like the WA contract with Volgren?
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Re: Bustech Discussion / Observations

Post by Lt. Commander Data »

tonyp wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:49 pm Yes, quite correct and the same would apply to Tasmania where they've been presented with a design in which, if decided, the diesel engines can be pulled out and replaced with electric drive. (What you do with 100+ redundant near-new diesel engines I can't imagine!)

Is there an option in the SA contract to substitute electric buses for diesel buses if required, like the WA contract with Volgren?
I *think* there are provisions for modifications to the vehicles, eg electric drive. Obviously the Hybrid Scanias (1791/1792) are in service, and 5 more are on the way.

Hopefully someone else who knows more about the contract than I can confirm
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