Rail Observations 2024

[tonyp]

I guess we'll see the RTBU demanding that guards' doors be sealed on the NIFs now.

Major delays on T2 Inner West line after guard falls off train

Sydney commuters were left facing huge delays after a guard fell off a moving train at Burwood on Friday morning.
Emily Kowal
and
William Tyson
less than 2 min read
February 9, 2024 - 10:50AM

Sydney’s train system was thrown into chaos after a guard fell off a moving train.

Emergency services were called to Burwood train station shortly before 6am where it’s understood the guard fell from a train cabin.

The T2 Inner West & Leppington line services were significantly impacted with commuters facing delays of more than 40 minutes.

Other lines including the T1 North Shore Line, T8 Airport & South Line and T9 Northern line have also been affected by the incident.

By 7:30, trains have mostly resumed to normal scheduling at Burwood station with only minor delays to city line services.

Commuter Leo Liu said the incident was shocking.

“It’s Chinese New Year’s Eve so this is a tragedy.”

He said he is glad the woman is okay and that some safety measures should be considered at Sydney train stations.

“It’s shocking. I do feel some safety measures should be put in place. In other countries they put barriers in front of trains. It’s not that hard I reckon.”

Sydney Trains urged commuters to allow for extra time after the incident.

“Allow extra travel time due to an incident requiring emergency services at Burwood,” Sydney Trains said on X.

“Trains may stop on platforms or between stations for longer than normal while the incident is ongoing.

“Please listen to announcements, check information screens and apps for service updates.”

Trains had to be stopped completely while the woman was treated by NSW Paramedics for a broken leg.

She was transported to Concord Hospital in a stable condition.

More to come.

[Linto63]

I guess we'll see the RTBU demanding that guards' doors be sealed on the NIFs now.

[alleve]

I guess we'll see the RTBU demanding that guards' doors be sealed on the NIFs now.

If the NIF cameras actually worked maybe that'd be an option

[BAMBAM]

TonyP once again always showing their true character and always never missing a beat on bashing on unions groups.

Anyway, the person in the article that says platform screens should’ve been installed doesn’t realise that same outcome would’ve of happened or worse decapitated as those door protects the passengers and not crew. The journalist just grabs information without putting it into perspective of the situation.

Love the comment it’s not that hard to installed these barriers, but is it really needed? If people just had common sense to always stand behind the yellow line and wait until the train stops before approaching, we wouldn’t need safety barriers. Go to any countries with safety screen doors and you’ll still see people accessing the tracks.

[BAMBAM]

I guess we'll see the RTBU demanding that guards' doors be sealed on the NIFs now.

If the NIF cameras actually worked maybe that'd be an option

And the weather doesn’t glare or blackout the screen, or rain snow and fog doesn’t fog up the camera would help. Just poor implementation on technology by the former government.

[alleve]

TonyP once again always showing their true character and always never missing a beat on bashing on unions groups.

Anyway, the person in the article that says platform screens should’ve been installed doesn’t realise that same outcome would’ve of happened or worse decapitated as those door protects the passengers and not crew. The journalist just grabs information without putting it into perspective of the situation.

Love the comment it’s not that hard to installed these barriers, but is it really needed? If people just had common sense to always stand behind the yellow line and wait until the train stops before approaching, we wouldn’t need safety barriers. Go to any countries with safety screen doors and you’ll still see people accessing the tracks.

Case in point - I just came back from Japan and six days ago witnessed the Yamanote line (which has platform screen doors) get delayed due to a person on the tracks. If people want to get on the tracks they will.

More relevant to the NIF though is that the guards are necessary because none of the technology designed to replace guards actually works. Is there a risk to having guards hanging out the side of the train? Yes. Is that risk lower than the risk of not having a guard and someone falling between the train and the platform? Yes too.

Metro doesn't need a guard, metro doesn't have a giant gap between the train and the platform. NSW TrainLink isn't the metro.

[tonyp]

PSDs provide a quantum increase in passenger rail safety, but they're not intended to be used in operations where there's a train guard.

What does Safework have to say about all this?

[BAMBAM]

PSDs provide a quantum increase in passenger rail safety, but they're not intended to be used in operations where there's a train guard.

What does Safework have to say about all this?

Let’s just say without jumping to conclusions that it wasn’t a unruly passenger trying to cause trouble, only two theories could come out is either the worker was being clumsy and not holding on safely and standing properly as taught or they could’ve had a medical episode which contributed to their fall. What could they possibly to prevent this accident without taking extreme action of banning guards looking out?

This does seem to be odd event that rarely occur.

[Merc1107]

Let’s just say without jumping to conclusions that it wasn’t a unruly passenger trying to cause trouble, only two theories could come out is either the worker was being clumsy and not holding on safely and standing properly as taught or they could’ve had a medical episode which contributed to their fall. What could they possibly to prevent this accident without taking extreme action of banning guards looking out?

Is there a risk to having guards hanging out the side of the train? Yes. Is that risk lower than the risk of not having a guard and someone falling between the train and the platform? Yes too.

Staff have the right to a safe workplace. Being required to stand in the door of a moving train, with nothing but your own common sense and grip on a handrail, does not smack of "protecting safety", you're effectively replacing one risk (passengers falling into the platform gap), with another (guards standing in the open doorway of a moving train). Medical episodes, or if the safety railing becomes slippery (due to water or grease) certainly increase that risk, as would passengers who attempt to grab hold of the guard...

I wonder how you would classify the job of guards per a risk assessment matrix? 4B or 4C would certainly be my guess.

And who could forget the old hierarchy of control?

[tonyp]

I wonder how you would classify the job of guards per a risk assessment matrix? 4B or 4C would certainly be my guess.

Tram guards lived at about 5A for 60 years in Sydney! When the R/R1 class came along, they were able to stay inside.

[boronia]

A lot of tram guards didn’t get to live for 60 years or were badly injured.
The males only got full benefits of the R classes in the last 12 months of the service.

[Merc1107]

Tram guards lived at about 5A for 60 years in Sydney! When the R/R1 class came along, they were able to stay inside.

In Perth, it was seemingly common practice for the doors of rail carriages (i.e. pre-electrification, on the non air-conditioned DMUs) to be left open during the summer to help keep the train cool, although I've also read accounts of the doors being left open in the winter, too! Have seen some great photos of the old trains going over the river, with all the doors open - I suppose the open doors might've been useful if you were trying to evade ticket inspectors

Since electrification, the doors have been shut, and CCTV (initially in the form of on-platform TVs) has replaced the need for guards - although aside from two stations, platform gaps and curved platforms are non-existent. Regional trains still have staff onboard - although they interact with the passengers both at stations, and during the journey (food kiosk, announcements, controlling unruly passengers etc).

[Linto63]

Tram guards lived at about 5A for 60 years in Sydney! When the R/R1 class came along, they were able to stay inside

The world has moved on, this sort of incident wouldn't have even warranted a mention in newspapers in the days of trams.

While understanding why it is done, by the time a train is travelling at 20 or 30km/h at the end of a platform, any action by a guard is unlikely to have much difference to the outcome, yet he is putting himself in harms way. Maybe an earlier retreat indoors to continue monitoring from the CCTV would be a better compromise.

[Merc1107]

Indeed - thus the guard is only going to be effective at preventing an incident if they can prevent the train's departure (in conjunction with any platform staff) in the first place.

One also has to consider the number of guards operating on the network across a given day, and the number of stations they would service. How many continuing and unmitigated opportunities for some sort of incident are there for guards on an ordinary day vs the public genuinely endangering themselves on the platform? How many "near misses" are guards experiencing during the course of their work each day vs people on the platform?

It's by no means a stretch to suggest the guards pose a considerably higher risk to the railway network than passengers, especially during hours of low patronage.

[Bus 400]

Especially at staffed stations.
No doubt the unions will push for a new speed limit of 5k/h whilst the guards door is open instead.

You have to remember the same CCTV equipment used by every railway DOO, buses ferries, trams/LRV around the world, apparently doesn't work in within the NSW Intercity network.

Let's hope the guard has a speedy recovery & gets back out there ASAP.

Sent from my SM-S911B using Tapatalk

[tonyp]

I have read that in Brisbane, the only other city to have guards, the guard goes inside and shuts the door before the train moves. It looks like the original specification of the NIF fleet was the right way to go in the first place.

The recent Auburn incident also indicates that even the combined diligence of a guard and a platform attendant won't save a passenger from being caught in a door and dragged anyway. The guard might as well be inside with the door shut when the train moves and observe the cab's CCTV from that point. It seems to be one of those work health and safety issues that have been left to drag on, but with the union bizarrely insisting in this case that the unsafe practice continue, rather than being ended.

[BAMBAM]

I have read that in Brisbane, the only other city to have guards, the guard goes inside and shuts the door before the train moves. It looks like the original specification of the NIF fleet was the right way to go in the first place.

The recent Auburn incident also indicates that even the combined diligence of a guard and a platform attendant won't save a passenger from being caught in a door and dragged anyway. The guard might as well be inside with the door shut when the train moves and observe the cab's CCTV from that point. It seems to be one of those work health and safety issues that have been left to drag on, but with the union bizarrely insisting in this case that the unsafe practice continue, rather than being ended.

If the NIF was the right way it would be in place, but it wasn't. We've had this discussion before and let's keep it in that thread. You only see one incident about Auburn, but how many other incidents that you don't hear because someone life was actually saved. Only incidents that's newsworthy gets heard about like injuries or death, but you don't hear about the ones where lives are saved.

[Linto63]

Despite all of the announcements and warnings, there are still plenty of idiots going for a Darwin Award. Surprised fatalities don't occur more often.

[boronia]

I often wondered why the guards compartments don't have "dutch doors" which would allow good external vision while containing the guard inside.

[Merc1107]

I have read that in Brisbane, the only other city to have guards, the guard goes inside and shuts the door before the train moves. It looks like the original specification of the NIF fleet was the right way to go in the first place.

Nope, they don't retreat inside until the train is well underway - but usually before the end of the platform.

You have to remember the same CCTV equipment used by every railway DOO, buses ferries, trams/LRV around the world, apparently doesn't work in within the NSW Intercity network.

Without speaking to people who interact with such equipment on an ongoing basis, there is no way of knowing if it does, in fact, function the way it should. It's quite possible the RTBU's concerns about the NIF are, to some extent, valid.

[tonyp]

Without speaking to people who interact with such equipment on an ongoing basis, there is no way of knowing if it does, in fact, function the way it should. It's quite possible the RTBU's concerns about the NIF are, to some extent, valid.

An issue on the Blue Mountains line apparently, with fog, rain and snow misting the camera views. I would think this would also be an issue anywhere in the world with similar and worse climates, but their world seems to carry on - in Europe as DOO. Perhaps a bit more study required as to experiences and solutions in other parts of the world, otherwise people might think its just another excuse to keep guards. Maybe it's legit, but that should be proved to the general public and taxpayer, rather than just saying "believe us".

[BAMBAM]

Without speaking to people who interact with such equipment on an ongoing basis, there is no way of knowing if it does, in fact, function the way it should. It's quite possible the RTBU's concerns about the NIF are, to some extent, valid.

An issue on the Blue Mountains line apparently, with fog, rain and snow misting the camera views. I would think this would also be an issue anywhere in the world with similar and worse climates, but their world seems to carry on - in Europe as DOO. Perhaps a bit more study required as to experiences and solutions in other parts of the world, otherwise people might think its just another excuse to keep guards. Maybe it's legit, but that should be proved to the general public and taxpayer, rather than just saying "believe us".

It has, through Fairwork and numerous court battles to make the government negotiate with unions and surprisingly it was the former Liberal Government that folded. The former government always said it was safe when their findings was only done from armchairs experts in office roles but RTBU presented real life findings which supported their case.

[boxythingy]

It astounds me not even just a little bit of the lower half of train guard bodies are not protected in such a way in Sydney, in Australia, in this country:


Is there also any reason why they can't hold out a mirror on an extended stick, on curved platforms for example ?

[tonyp]

It has, through Fairwork and numerous court battles to make the government negotiate with unions and surprisingly it was the former Liberal Government that folded. The former government always said it was safe when their findings was only done from armchairs experts in office roles but RTBU presented real life findings which supported their case.

One does get very sceptical about these things when you see practices overseas, like operations in far worse conditions than are experienced in Australia, but somehow they deal with it better. The "Sydney/Australia is different" line wears a bit thin after a while and you can understand why the public starts to think it's actually a rort and not some serious issue.

The photos that are appearing here of overseas guards just using a window or stable door show that there are better ways of doing things that we don't think of here. Now that we've had a guard fall out a door, perhaps they should be looking at a modification like that for the NIFs, rather than making the doors openable while the train is moving.

[BAMBAM]

It has, through Fairwork and numerous court battles to make the government negotiate with unions and surprisingly it was the former Liberal Government that folded. The former government always said it was safe when their findings was only done from armchairs experts in office roles but RTBU presented real life findings which supported their case.

One does get very sceptical about these things when you see practices overseas, like operations in far worse conditions than are experienced in Australia, but somehow they deal with it better. The "Sydney/Australia is different" line wears a bit thin after a while and you can understand why the public starts to think it's actually a rort and not some serious issue.

The photos that are appearing here of overseas guards just using a window or stable door show that there are better ways of doing things that we don't think of here. Now that we've had a guard fall out a door, perhaps they should be looking at a modification like that for the NIFs, rather than making the doors openable while the train is moving.

In that picture, it’s easy if all platforms was straight. But in Sydney, sometimes guards needs to actually get out of the train for a clear sight to ensure the safety of departure, which makes the picture redundant because of blind spots.

Even though it was only one incident, how many times has this happened compared to how many times they actually saved a life of someone. Also it now appears the person, performed their job and have right of way for train to depart and in that moment blacked out and lost their sense and control hence fallen down.