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More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby mandonov » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:01 am

TfNSW announcement: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-and-events/media-releases/nsw-government-planning-to-progress-more-trains-more-services

The NSW Government is planning to progress the More Trains, More Services program forward onto the next stage of development

Over the next 10 years this essential program will transform Sydney’s busiest train lines with more services through digital systems, infrastructure upgrades, and more new trains.

The next stage of More Trains, More Services will investigate upgrades to parts of the network with state-of-the-art technology to create high capacity, turn up and go services for many customers.

Key benefits

  • More services that will reduce wait times and ease crowding for long distance customers.
  • Faster travel times for customers through digital train control technology and upgraded rail infrastructure, creating more opportunities for express trains.
  • Simplified rail network to improve reliability and reduce customer impacts from incidents.
  • Turn up and go services for many customers who will no longer need a timetable throughout most of the day.
  • Better connections and integration with other modes of transport.
  • Greater freight capacity through digital systems and upgraded track infrastructure.

Download brochure (PDF, 1.66 MB) - https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/system ... %202_0.pdf

T4 Illawarra and T8 Airport lines

In response to recent growth in demand on the T4 Illawarra and T8 Airport lines the program will initially investigate:

  • More services for the T8 Airport Line, including a potential 80 per cent increase at the International, Domestic, Mascot and Green Square stations during the morning peak, meaning trains at least on average every four minutes instead of every six minutes today.
  • A 30 per cent increase in peak services on the T4 Illawarra Line, with more services for South Coast customers.

What we have delivered

The first stage of the program focused on boosting capacity through extra services, better infrastructure and new train, with around 1500 extra weekly services, including more express trains for Western and South West Sydney.

We have upgraded rail infrastructure to allow our complex network to operate at an even greater capacity, including better signalling systems, power supply upgrades and train station improvements.

Next Steps

We’re working closely with key stakeholders to investigate options to improve services for our customers. This is not a quick fix and requires substantial planning and analysis. We’ll continue to review customer feedback to make improvements where possible.

For more information about the More Trains, More Services program email moretrainsmoreservices@transport.nsw.gov.au
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby TSE_SecretAni » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:55 am

I try to access that website and the transport.nsw.gov.au said "Access denied"
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:25 pm

It seems to have gone now - the pdf is OK
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby TSE_SecretAni » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:27 pm

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... e-services

The reviewed has been updated from 10 June 2018
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby boronia » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:56 pm

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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby swtt » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:11 pm

If the ALP decides to scrap the metro extension to Bankstown then this promise should logically go down the gurgler as well. The extra train paths for T8 won't magically appear unless the Bankstown trains go.

Also the fixation to 20 trains per hour seems to now be gone. This program now tries to decrease the headways to 2.5 minutes.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:27 pm

Mmmmm :)

I sniff an election just around the corner
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby grog » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:12 pm

This has long been in the works off the back of the change in ATP strategy a few years ago to allow future upgrade to ATO.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby Glen » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:04 pm

This sounds like a great project, but I do find it fascinating how much money they have to spend to achieve 24 trains per hour, when single-deckers ran more often than that years ago.

Here are my favourite stats, especially the volume out of some of those dead-end shunts before the City Circle was completed:

In the 1938 timetable the number of trains departing Wynyard in the 60 minute period from 5pm was as follows:

• Up Shore to Down Western and Northern lines: 26

• Up West and North to Down Shore: 21

• Wynyard low level dead end to Bankstown and Local West: 27
(The latter included 17 trains per hour on the Bankstown line!)

• St James dead end to Illawarra and Kingsgrove 25.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby swtt » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:13 pm

Glen wrote:This sounds like a great project, but I do find it fascinating how much money they have to spend to achieve 24 trains per hour, when single-deckers ran more often than that years ago.

Here are my favourite stats, especially the volume out of some of those dead-end shunts before the City Circle was completed:

In the 1938 timetable the number of trains departing Wynyard in the 60 minute period from 5pm was as follows:

• Up Shore to Down Western and Northern lines: 26

• Up West and North to Down Shore: 21

• Wynyard low level dead end to Bankstown and Local West: 27
(The latter included 17 trains per hour on the Bankstown line!)

• St James dead end to Illawarra and Kingsgrove 25.


I can smell after ATO is implemented on these lines it will be franchised off. Single decks here we come again?
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby grog » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:16 pm

I doubt it. A technology update about increasing safety and capacity is not automatically about privatisation.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby Aurora » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:01 pm

Glen wrote:This sounds like a great project, but I do find it fascinating how much money they have to spend to achieve 24 trains per hour, when single-deckers ran more often than that years ago.

Here are my favourite stats, especially the volume out of some of those dead-end shunts before the City Circle was completed:

In the 1938 timetable the number of trains departing Wynyard in the 60 minute period from 5pm was as follows:

• Up Shore to Down Western and Northern lines: 26

• Up West and North to Down Shore: 21

• Wynyard low level dead end to Bankstown and Local West: 27
(The latter included 17 trains per hour on the Bankstown line!)

• St James dead end to Illawarra and Kingsgrove 25.

That is the cost of safety and due process. We can't even reliably do 20 tph now usually due to this and overcrowding.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby grog » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:17 pm

Remember that was SD. Current trains are DD so 24tph is pretty damn good given a good proportion of the headway is dwell time at city stations.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby moa999 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:56 pm

And single deck without doors that you had to wait to open and close. Just blow the whistle and off you go.

Same with the trams, that sometimes even rolled through stops with pax entering and exiting at low speed.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby boronia » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:13 pm

There would have been a lot less people travelling in 1938.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:47 pm

boronia wrote:There would have been a lot less people travelling in 1938.
A large part of the rail network was still being serviced by steam hauled trains 80 years ago so the department of railways the DRTT and the government of the time had more electric trains to run to the areas that were electrified
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby andy_centralcoast » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:03 pm

The network map in the PDF appears to show T3 starting/terminating at Cabramatta rather than Liverpool. Have they let some upcoming timetable changes slip through?
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:22 am

andy_centralcoast wrote:The network map in the PDF appears to show T3 starting/terminating at Cabramatta rather than Liverpool. Have they let some upcoming timetable changes slip through?


They'll need some heavy infrastructure work first.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby tonyp » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:20 am

boronia wrote:There would have been a lot less people travelling in 1938.

174.6 million people on the suburban trains in 1939 and rapidly rising to a peak of about 260 million in the mid 1950s, after which it plunged over the next 20 years back to the 1939 level and didn't start rising again slowly until the late 1970s, getting back over 200 million in 1980. The present rise to over 300 million developed quite recently and this is when traffic pressures on the system would have really developed.

It's actually interesting when you look at these figures, that the adoption of double deckers, ostensibly to increase capacity, occurred at a time when patronage was actually on a big slide and well before the slight signs of recovery started showing up in the 1980s. It makes you think that the main purpose of the double deckers was to run less trains on the system. It would be interesting to know whether timetables reflected this from the 1970s onwards.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:10 am

tonyp wrote:
It's actually interesting when you look at these figures, that the adoption of double deckers, ostensibly to increase capacity, occurred at a time when patronage was actually on a big slide and well before the slight signs of recovery started showing up in the 1980s. It makes you think that the main purpose of the double deckers was to run less trains on the system. It would be interesting to know whether timetables reflected this from the 1970s onwards.


The extra capacity may well have been for the CBD in the peaks, and probably was intended to prevent the operation of extra services.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby mandonov » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:29 pm

New media release, same announcement: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... d-t8-lines

Only difference being slightly more detail here:
In response to recent growth in demand on the T4 Illawarra and T8 Airport lines the program will initially prioritise work to prepare the network to deliver:

  • Up to 30 per cent increase in peak suburban services on the T4 Illawarra Line, as well as more services for South Coast customers.
  • More services for the T8 Airport Line, including a potential 80 per cent increase at the International, Domestic, Mascot and Green Square stations during the morning peak, as well as extra services from Revesby and Campbelltown in south west Sydney.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby grog » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:45 pm

Here is a copy of the Sydney Trains signalling strategy which came into effect July 2016. This was developed in response to Sydney’s Rail Future and changed/extended the earlier ATP and digital train radio strategy to allow future implementation of ATO while still meeting the Waterfall enquiry recommendations.

As I mentioned, this has been a long time in development, certainly not some election announcement with nothing behind it. It couldn’t come too soon.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/ ... rategy.pdf
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby molybtek » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:46 am

These upgrades will be delivered in stages with services coming online progressively from the early 2020s.


It's definitely election announcement... nothing to see until at least 2020s...
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby grog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:00 am

It is much more likely this is being announced now as it is in the budget. The $880m in the upcoming state budget is the first of the implementation funds - it has been trials and planning to this point and that started years ago.
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Re: More Trains, More Services | Signalling Upgrades

Postby moa999 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:06 am

I don't think signalling gets the voters hearts fluttering

Shiny new toys on the otherhand
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