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Use of Back Door on Buses

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:37 am

An interesting development in Europe, where all-door boarding is already an established norm - in view of the development of the coronavirus, some operations are moving to minimise risk for bus drivers by closing off the front door and allowing entry and egress only by the other doors. No fare transactions or other interaction with bus drivers are allowed. It will be interesting to see how quickly the RTBU moves on this. This photo from Zurich:

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Cazza » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:22 am

Campbelltown busboy wrote:
Swift wrote:^ Try convincing Sydney Transport bosses. Like talking to a besser block wall.
The whole Transport For NSW thought process is union based and if they don't consult with the RTBU about things like all door boarding or other sensible ideas when it comes to public transport in Sydney then there will be a strike because the union wasn't told and the government only cares about what they want and the union won't take it


Just a question, how can Transport for NSW be so union based if it's a government run organisation and that government in charge went against the unions in regards to the Inner West bus privatisation just a few years ago?

I understand that unions have a strong influence or stance in this industry (in Brisbane too from what I'm aware), however, I wouldn't go as far to say that the government is only here to make the RTBU happy. Behind closed doors, I'm sure the government (from both sides to be honest with you) will be fed up with some unions at some point in time.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:14 am

tonyp wrote:An interesting development in Europe, where all-door boarding is already an established norm - in view of the development of the coronavirus, some operations are moving to minimise risk for bus drivers by closing off the front door and allowing entry and egress only by the other doors. No fare transactions or other interaction with bus drivers are allowed. It will be interesting to see how quickly the RTBU moves on this. This photo from Zurich:

Image
The RTBU would be a calling for a nation wide state of quarantine to protect their members if there's such a thing as a state of quarantine
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Merc1107 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:23 pm

tonyp wrote:... where all-door boarding is already an established norm - in view of the development of the coronavirus, some operations are moving to minimise risk for bus drivers by closing off the front door and allowing entry and egress only by the other doors.
I think there are several reasons such an initiative would fall flat on its face here in Australia:

- Rigid buses have only a single door (and maybe only a half-width/single-leaf affair), so you'd be working with one door only in some cases
- Accessibility issues with the back doors where there mightn't be the manoeuvring space for prams/wheelchairs etc, or worse yet, steps to contend with!
- Smart-card payment systems may not work on the back doors by default. In Perth, for example, if you tag on at the back door you'll be slugged a default fare if the ticketing equipment hasn't had its default overridden. This could probably be resolved without much fuss, though. The other issue with ticketing is (potentially) a lack of sufficient validators at the back doors - we only have one per door here in Perth and Darwin buses have only one at the front
- Air-conditioning - Unlike other parts of the world where A/C mightn't be the norm, there are few (if any) fresh-air ventilation options on most service buses here. I don't know how easily the virus can spread via air-conditioning systems, but this would be more of a concern for the driver, spending hours in a potentially-contaminated environment versus passengers only spending a few minutes on the bus.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:34 pm

I was thinking more about the RTBU and the Sydney environment where the buses they drive have at least two double leaf doors anyway, the Opal readers read both ways and, at least on Volgrens and Customs, the aisle width would be I think adequate for a wheelchair to get from the centre door to the wheelchair space (though there's the matter of the ramp of course). Of course all Bustechs would be instantly inaccessible and would either have to be withdrawn from service or highlighted as such in timetables.

I believe from reading manufacturers literature that European buses tend to have a separate aircon unit for the driver but perhaps it's different here.
Last edited by tonyp on Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:25 pm

tonyp wrote:I was thinking more about the RTBU and the Sydney environment where the buses they drive have at least two double leaf doors anyway, the Opal readers read both ways and, at least on Volgrens and Customs, the aisle width would be I think adequate for a wheelchair to get from the centre door to the wheelchair space (though there's the matter of the ramp of course). Of course all Bustechs would be instantly inaccessible and would either have to be withdrawn from service or highlight gated as such in timetables.
I think most of Sydney's unionised bus drivers are members of the TWU
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby J_Busworth » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:44 am

[quote="Campbelltown busboy"
I think most of Sydney's unionised bus drivers are members of the TWU[/quote]

All STA and a good amount of TSA drivers are with the RTBU. Historically, most of the buses with back doors have been buses operated by RTBU members.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:47 pm

Some other photos plucked from a Facebook group.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:48 am

See my comments on the Private Observations thread. They do have the advantage in Europe of the ramp typically being at the second door and cashless (smartcard) fares and all-door entry being an almost universal norm, so they are able to continue normal accessible operations while isolating the driver at the same time. The way it should be here. This pandemic has the side-effect of showing up how out-of-date our operational methods are.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:45 am

tonyp wrote:See my comments on the Private Observations thread. They do have the advantage in Europe of the ramp typically being at the second door and cashless (smartcard) fares and all-door entry being an almost universal norm, so they are able to continue normal accessible operations while isolating the driver at the same time. The way it should be here. This pandemic has the side-effect of showing up how out-of-date our operational methods are.
Is there a actual market for right hand hand drive buses with 3 doors for rigid buses and 5 doors for arctic buses like the European based left hand drive 3 or 5 door buses that you keep praising or can they do multiple door boarding with two door buses
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:16 am

Campbelltown busboy wrote:Is there a actual market for right hand hand drive buses with 3 doors for rigid buses and 5 doors for arctic buses like the European based left hand drive 3 or 5 door buses that you keep praising or can they do multiple door boarding with two door buses

Nobody here is demanding doors behind the rear axle, so manufacturers are not bothering to convert low-floor LHD to RHD for this feature. Only Daimler Benz is floating this on the Australian market but there have been no takers so far and no prototype bus. You can have all-door boarding with any number of doors from two upwards.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:48 am

In the late 70s and early 80s with the Bedfordsauruses private operators dished out, they offered egress. The paranoid doofuses can't even offer that now in this complete backwater operating environment they IMPOSE on us.
The drivers are well and truly programmed as we witnessed during the pink link.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:09 am

A good demonstration at the end of the video in this article of one reason why stairs in bus aisles are a bad thing:

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... NutAgGmsJU
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:13 pm

An interesting University of Sydney study of all-door boarding:

http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/del ... 97F4F0674D

If you have trouble opening it, it was linked from here:

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ ... /art00006#

Figure 1 shows the boarding time reduction per number of doors. Although the hypothetical conclusion may be that for lower passenger volumes, one door may be more effective overall, the issue is that you can't confuse the customers. You either do it for all or don't do it at all.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:53 am

Transport Canberra pointing the way to the future?

Image

The only problem is that it's sabotaged for people with "invisible" mobility impairments by their Bustechs and Combo artics with stepped entries!
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby boronia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:01 pm

There is a video circulating on a few TfNSW Facebook pages (inc Sydney Trains) on the changes being made to STA buses, with the extra cleaning and "safe area" around the drivers.
This might be a good avenue to publicly ask why rear door loading is not being encouraged, when other countries are enforcing it.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:48 pm

I was on a bus in Melbourne today where the driver only opened the centre/rear door and kept the front door sealed. I guess much like all door boarding, these things seem to happen unofficially in Melbourne.

(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:16 pm

rogf24 wrote:I was on a bus in Melbourne today where the driver only opened the centre/rear door and kept the front door sealed. I guess much like all door boarding, these things seem to happen unofficially in Melbourne.

(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)

It seems to have been introduced in Melbourne now as well as Canberra and Brisbane.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:43 pm

boronia wrote:There is a video circulating on a few TfNSW Facebook pages (inc Sydney Trains) on the changes being made to STA buses, with the extra cleaning and "safe area" around the drivers.
This might be a good avenue to publicly ask why rear door loading is not being encouraged, when other countries are enforcing it.

Stubborn RTBU.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:08 pm

Swift wrote:Stubborn RTBU.

The RTBU never had a problem with it in Brisbane and still doesn't apparently, so I'm sure they don't have double standards for NSW. Someone elsewhere now tells me the OTSI is the culprit in NSW and there's legislation about it, but I've never seen any regulation, let alone legislation in NSW banning all-door boarding, otherwise a certain operator wouldn't be practising it.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:39 pm

tonyp wrote:
rogf24 wrote:I was on a bus in Melbourne today where the driver only opened the centre/rear door and kept the front door sealed. I guess much like all door boarding, these things seem to happen unofficially in Melbourne.

(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)

It seems to have been introduced in Melbourne now as well as Canberra and Brisbane.
I can't say they've "introduced" it but this was for just one trip.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:56 pm

rogf24 wrote:I can't say they've "introduced" it but this was for just one trip.

I'm getting that more from a press release I saw.
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