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Inner West Light Rail observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby gld59 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:41 am

With existing turn restrictions? No.

The Railway ramp is left-in/left-out at both ends, the right turn from Pitt St to Eddy Av leaves no real opportunity to have an opposing right turn from Pitt St to Rawson Place, and I think Barlow St is currently closed at George St.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby jpp42 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:48 am

gld59 wrote:With existing turn restrictions? No.

the right turn from Pitt St to Eddy Av leaves no real opportunity to have an opposing right turn from Pitt St to Rawson Place,


Can you explain what you mean by that? This route shown above is one way, if they allowed a right from Pitt into Rawson for buses only, it would only be needed for this direction (George from Rawson to Ultimo only has one northbound lane open). The return to Central is via Harris/George/Pitt/Campbell/Hay to the collonade which is just as bad, really, but maybe even fewer options for improvement on that one since it can't run via George north of Railway Sq.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby boronia » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:11 am

Possibly going Pitt, Goulburn, Sussex ??
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Free Lance » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:22 am

Inbound.

Harris (L) George (VR) Pitt (R) Eddy (L) Elizabeth (L) Hay (L) railway Ramp (stays away from the Campbell Street MESS)
This of course give the option of an extra stop in Eddy Ave for pax wanted Sydney trains service
Doesn't matter which option, it is still painfully slow in Hay Street
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby jpp42 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:52 am

boronia wrote:Possibly going Pitt, Goulburn, Sussex ??


Were you thinking across to Thomas then Ultimo Rd? Thomas is closed at Hay St due to the construction.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby gld59 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:26 pm

jpp42 wrote:Can you explain what you mean by that? This route shown above is one way, if they allowed a right from Pitt into Rawson for buses only, it would only be needed for this direction

Maybe I've just given up. :( [edit: clarification - on things being done well here]
If the southern side of Rawson is in use, the alignment of the turn would be bad, with the preferred path for the buses overlapping with the traffic turning into Eddy. Whichever side of Rawson is in use, buses would probably have to wait until not only their lights had turned red, but the lights for the northbound traffic had turned red as well. With one bus per cycle it's doable, but you'd certainly need to keep anyone else from taking advantage of any turn ban exemption.

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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Stu » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:16 pm

I was going to suggest to follow Pitt St heading South and follow route 501 until Harris St, the only problem is that there is a 'no right turn' from Harris St into Ultimo Rd which would provide a left turn into Darling Dr.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Glen » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:15 pm

jpp42 wrote:I've noticed that during the shut down this week, a few trams are parked on the main lines near Convention station. They appear to have a security guard stationed at the station too, perhaps to protect them from graffiti. Is this because there's no other stabling space, or is there other work being done that prevents them from stabling elsewhere?
I presume these would be the trams normally stabled at Lilyfield Siding.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby J_Busworth » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:32 pm

I was on a tram tonight around 9pm and it was Packed! Nearly the whole tram filled up the Casino, with some people unable to get on at the Convention and Exhibition stops as it was crush loaded. One thing I noticed is how poor the procedure for getting off a wheelchair passenger was. The driver had to get out of the cabin with the ramp and get to the wheelchair (which he struggled to do due to crowding) and then the passenger get off on the ramp, this took at least a few minutes. I know there probably isn't a better way but it seemed horribly inefficient.

Mods: May I also suggest that a light rail observation thread is placed at the top alongside the other observations threads could be a good idea?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Tonymercury » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:57 am

J_Busworth wrote:One thing I noticed is how poor the procedure for getting off a wheelchair passenger was. The driver had to get out of the cabin with the ramp and get to the wheelchair (which he struggled to do due to crowding) and then the passenger get off on the ramp, this took at least a few minutes. I know there probably isn't a better way but it seemed horribly inefficient.


Might I humbly suggest that demand suppressing TfNSW built a tramway and than failed to make the platforms a standard height and the new trams the same height? It does work with the revised platforms at Central, works on the Gold Coast, works with modern trams and platforms in Melbourne. Who knows about Adelaide?

But level, timesaving, easy wheelchair boarding in Sydney? Please leave when you stop laughing. It is supposed to happen with CSELR, wait and see.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:33 am

J_Busworth wrote:I was on a tram tonight around 9pm and it was Packed! Nearly the whole tram filled up the Casino, with some people unable to get on at the Convention and Exhibition stops as it was crush loaded. One thing I noticed is how poor the procedure for getting off a wheelchair passenger was. The driver had to get out of the cabin with the ramp and get to the wheelchair (which he struggled to do due to crowding) and then the passenger get off on the ramp, this took at least a few minutes. I know there probably isn't a better way but it seemed horribly inefficient.

See my posts pertinent to this just made on the "back door" thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75962&start=1325

Also trams specified with doors deleted off the standard specification by some noob at TfNSW or consultant, resulting in throttling passenger exchange and distribution. WTF is it about doors in NSW public transport nowadays? Some of these "transport professionals" need some doors on their houses and cars nailed shut until they get the message.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby J_Busworth » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:26 am

Tonymercury wrote:
But level, timesaving, easy wheelchair boarding in Sydney? Please leave when you stop laughing. It is supposed to happen with CSELR, wait and see.


I fully expect that we will be seeing the same driver and ramp process with CSELR, even if it supposed to be level platforms. Personally, I think we shouldn't expect anything to be easy and timesaving when it comes to TFNSW.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby hornetfig » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:54 pm

The kinematic envelope for the CSELR is extremely tight. It's part of what causes the incompatibility between the two systems. So for all that effort you'd want dead level boarding at only millimetres of gap.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:25 pm

hornetfig wrote:The kinematic envelope for the CSELR is extremely tight. It's part of what causes the incompatibility between the two systems. So for all that effort you'd want dead level boarding at only millimetres of gap.

I wonder if that's been matched to Alstom trams so that no other competitor gets a look-in in the future and TfNSW was ignorant enough to let it pass?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Tonymercury » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:22 am

hornetfig wrote:The kinematic envelope for the CSELR is extremely tight. It's part of what causes the incompatibility between the two systems. So for all that effort you'd want dead level boarding at only millimetres of gap.


I understand that up to about 25mm works - certainly it isn't 'only millimetres' in Melbourne where there are several types of accessible trams. It also isn't on the Gold Coast. where there is only one type.

And the problem with IWLR is generally the match between tram floor and platform - the height, NOT the gap width. Central HAS been made to work, so why can't the rest work?

I said this in my original post.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:52 am

I reckon if they can get the clearances they do on Perth trains (the only trains in Australia where wheelchairs can board without additional aid):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8pY-GTe6Xs

where they have to take account of any sway when a train goes through stations express at up to 130 km/h, they can do it for trams that stop at every stop. It seems to be more a competence issue than anything else.

I'm more concerned whether the design of CSELR has been fiddled just for Alstom trams. That's a real major probity concern.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Tonymercury » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:52 am

tonyp wrote:I reckon if they can get the clearances they do on Perth trains (the only trains in Australia where wheelchairs can board without additional aid):


This is not correct Tony - both Melbourne and Brisbane have a number of locations where ramps are not needed.

http://atrf.info/papers/2013/2013_moug_coxon.pdf
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby boronia » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:14 am

Brisbane has lots of stations where able-bodied pax need a step ladder to board the train.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Tonymercury » Thu May 24, 2018 6:27 am

On a day out yesterday I managed to see IWLR at Central at 0830 - what a disaster!

When I arrived at the boarding platform there were a number of queues across the whole width of the platform, matching the location of the tram doors, organised by three or so people in party frocks.

I squeezed through and went a little way around the corner before stopping to see what happened. A tram was just setting forward from the set down stop, came to a halt, opened the doors for the mob to pour in and within about 30 seconds the partygoers were calling out 'stand back from the doors' and the tram departed and was absolutely chockers. This left around 30 people still on the platform with more arriving all of the time.

I went back to the queuing area for another look and then descended the ramp towards Hay St, realising as I approached the lights that the tram was still waiting to get through and it took until another phase of the lights after that for another tram to appear, this one only getting to the RH turn up to the concourse before waiting for another phase of the lights.

Can someone kindly point out to TfNSW that, if they build something, 'the public will come'?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Thu May 24, 2018 7:21 am

Tonymercury wrote:
Can someone kindly point out to TfNSW that, if they build something, 'the public will come'?

They know that, that's why they (and the RMS) are in such a panic to contain the situation. If they could pave the tracks between there and Dulwich Hill, I'm sure they'd love to replace each tram with one of their 58 passenger buses. This terminus is a legacy of the previous system and was designed for a very high - virtually nose to tail - throughput of trams. No doubt TfNSW would have welcomed the proposal to turn it into a porte cochere for a hotel and replace it with a very restricted reversing stub terminus down on the street. Then they'd have an excuse.

It would be interesting to get a head count to see if they're actually getting about 200-220 people on the tram which is typical capacity.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby matthewg » Thu May 24, 2018 9:14 am

They are completely uninterested in solving the congestion problems in the IWLR. They had a relatively cheap option available until a few months ago. That has been 'fixed'.
And not all the new apartment blocks along the IWLR route are finished yet.

The only option left now (other than parallel bus routes) is to make the IWLR Citadis compatible and get a few more 305s added to the current order. Doubt that will happen either. Meanwhile, even more, high-density development will get approved as it's next to a 'high capacity transport corridor'.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby tonyp » Thu May 24, 2018 10:43 am

They would have enough spare trams in the CSELR Citadis fleet to run them as single sets on IWLR if they ensure that the journey time on CSELR is what it should be - under 25 minutes. Likewise, they should be able to increase tram availability on IWLR if they reduced the journey time to what it should be. At the moment TfNSW has no idea how to design and run a tram system, that's the biggest obstacle.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby moa999 » Thu May 24, 2018 2:40 pm

matthewg wrote:They are completely uninterested in solving the congestion problems in the IWLR. They had a relatively cheap option available until a few months ago. That has been 'fixed'.
'.


What option was that??

There are plenty of simple solutions imho.
1. Add to CAF order for Newcastle and pinch a few
2. Traffic light priority at Darling, Thomas, George, Pitt and Castlereagh. Could shave 3+ minutes, which increases number of services
3. Shortrun trams to Wentworth Park using crossover and spare driver ready to step into opposite end.
4. Spare driver at Dulwich Hill to step in to opposite end and reduce changeover times.


As for the Citadis trams - my understanding is that they are broadly compatible (and will run to the Pyrmont maintenance shed), but as a new type don't meet the most recent DDA standards for gap and level.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby Frosty » Thu May 24, 2018 7:23 pm

I feel like with IWLR they will probably do nothing for the short to medium term and maybe try to discourage people from using the IWLR through using alternative modes.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Postby boronia » Thu May 24, 2018 7:59 pm

moa999 wrote:
matthewg wrote:They are completely uninterested in solving the congestion problems in the IWLR. They had a relatively cheap option available until a few months ago. That has been 'fixed'.
'.


What option was that??


SIX perfectly good Vario trams which could have remained in service, and been progressively upgraded.
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