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Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Scott4570 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:37 am

Friday Evening, March 20, Light Rail observations at the Moore Park Stop between 1530 and 1730 hours (approx.).

Outbound Units to Kensington Juniors: Empty from Central.
Inbound Units from Kensington Juniors: 1st pick-up at the Moore Park stop.

Rosters: Randwick 10 coupled Units (20 units), Kensington Juniors 10 coupled Units (20 units). 40 units required for the Service, from a Fleet of 60 units.

R = to and from Randwick.
J = to and from Kensington Juniors.
D = to and from Depot
T = to and from Turnback.

Outbound … … … … … … … … … | … … Inbound … … … … … … … …
Time_____ Route___Units … … | … … Time_____Route____Units
15:30:42____R_____06/05 … … | … … 15:33:00____R_____03/04
15:35:18____R_____18/17 … … | … … 15:36:36____J_____20/19
15:39:12____J_____42/41 … … | … … 15:40:48____J_____28/27
15:44:00____J_____44/43 … … | … … 15:45:54____J_____52/51
15:50:36____R_____37/38 … … | … … 15:49:42____R_____55/56
15:53:30____J_____01/02 … … | … … 15:50:54____J_____46/45
15:54:30____R_____49/50 … … | … … 15:52:00____R_____08/07
15:57:18____D_____09/10 … … | … … 16:02:42____R_____05/06
16:05:12____R_____40/39 … … | … … 16:14:42____J_____41/42
16:10:12____J_____32/31 … … | … … 16:17:00____R_____17/18
16:13:12____R_____21/22 … … | … … 16:21:48____J_____43/44
16:16:54____J_____11/12 … … | … … 16:24:18____R_____38/37
16:24:42____R_____36/35 … … | … … 16:32:48____J_____02/01
16:34:30____R_____04/03 … … | … … 16:33:54____R_____50/49
16:38:42____T_____19/20 … … | … … 16:42:54____R_____39/40
16:40:24____J_____27/28 … … | … … 16:50:06____J_____31/32
16:44:30____J_____51/52 … … | … … 16:53:42____J_____12/11
16:49:48____R_____56/55 … … | … … 16:54:48____R_____22/21
16:55:42____J_____45/46 … … | … … 16:58:24____T_____20/19
16:59:12____R_____07/08 … … | … … 17:03:42____R_____35/36
17:07:30____R_____06/05 … … | … … 17:16:36____J_____28/27
17:09:00____J_____42/41 … … | … … 17:18:48____R_____03/04
17:14:00____R_____18/17 … … | … … 17:24:42____J_____52/51
17:19:00____J_____44/43 … … | … … 17:27:00____R_____55/56
17:24:12____R_____37/38 … … | … … 17:32:12____R_____08/07

At 1800 hours (approx.) Units seen in the Randwick Depot: 09/10 (taken out of service earlier), 13/14, 23/24, 25/26, 33/34, 47/48, 53/54, new units 57/58, 59/60.
No sighting of Units: 15/16 and 29/30.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:34 pm

One thing noticeable from this listing is the lack of regular frequencies on the R line. Anything from 5 to 18 minutes. J line also has massive discrepancies; seeing this is supposed to be "timetable running" one would expect the services to be realistic.

While city traffic conditions may account for some outbound delays, there should be no reason why the inbound services have so much variation. I understand there is adequate layover time built in at R between trips for recovery.

It is also interesting to compare the turnaround times on MP-R-CQ-MP for a few of the early listings which have managed a full circuit.

On a side note, I noticed today today that some L3 "services" were showing L3 destinations, rather than NIS or blank.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:35 pm

I now can not see the Kingsford branch being opened for a while.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:11 pm

Abysmal performance, now three months in. If one is looking for excuses, you could attribute the slow journey time to prioritizing headway management but they seemingly haven't even achieved anything on ironing out headways. What a terrible operation.

They might as well start L3, nobody would notice now. University student numbers will be right down, patronage counts meaningless for at least a few months. No point truncating the buses for now either, it would only add to the general inconvenience. On the other hand, as less people are commuting now, it might be a good opportunity to sneak in some good ol' service degradation and hope the commuters won't notice when they return.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby moa999 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:10 pm

They could change the bus routes and no-one would notice
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:18 pm

They touted the cost blowout and inconvenience during the glacial inefficient construction phase would be all vindicated upon opening.
Is it ever possible to put credence in what a NSW government ever says?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby J_Busworth » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:20 pm

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... 54f4273dd3

Behind a paywall, but I doubt that they are really still on track for opening given the lack of announcement
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby marcnut1996 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:49 am

Doors now opening automatically on light rail
Tram doors are now opening automatically at platforms to minimise your contact with trams on all light rail services.

From the latest COVID advice, last updated yesterday.
https://transportnsw.info/news/2020/information-advice-on-novel-coronavirus-covid-19
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:04 pm

Just one finger is required to press that button, but dozens of hands could be grabbing poles and hand rails inside
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby STMPainter2018 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:44 pm

tonyp wrote:Abysmal performance, now three months in. If one is looking for excuses, you could attribute the slow journey time to prioritizing headway management but they seemingly haven't even achieved anything on ironing out headways. What a terrible operation.

I haven't had any complaints about operations, nor seen any others from the average person outside of gunzels and keyboard warriors who have nothing better to do in their lives. As far as I'm concerned, they can run the system however they want to run it; it's clear no one is gonna be happy no matter what they do. People like you going on and on about "terrible operations" have just left me not caring about how trams are operated in this goddamn city; I am over it! Maybe take your complaints to where they may be of use instead of crying here or on TDU.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:01 pm

STMPainter2018 wrote:I haven't had any complaints about operations, nor seen any others from the average person outside of gunzels and keyboard warriors who have nothing better to do in their lives. As far as I'm concerned, they can run the system however they want to run it; it's clear no one is gonna be happy no matter what they do. People like you going on and on about "terrible operations" have just left me not caring about how trams are operated in this goddamn city; I am over it! Maybe take your complaints to where they may be of use instead of crying here or TDU. Otherwise you're not being productive with your time and just pissing everyone else off with your obnoxious holier than thou opinions.

What, you've only just read the post! I said it's been three months and you previously said give it time. Well it's had time. I'd be prepared to give them more if they were sorting out headway management first but they haven't even got that down in three months. How much "give them time" do you suggest then? I've never seen anything like this in any new tram operation.

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby BroadGauge » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:45 pm

STMPainter2018 wrote:Okay hyperbolic Boomer.

Oh look, it's another one of those ones who only manage to express their disagreeance about someone else's opinion by trying to insult them.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby J_Busworth » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:44 am

STMPainter2018 wrote:I haven't had any complaints about operations, nor seen any others from the average person outside of gunzels and keyboard warriors who have nothing better to do in their lives. As far as I'm concerned, they can run the system however they want to run it; it's clear no one is gonna be happy no matter what they do.


I live in the "catchment zone" for the L2 Randwick Line. I'm the only person with a care either way about transport in my circle of friends and locals that I know. They ALL have whinged about the light rail to the extent they all refuse to catch it. Of course that's just my circle of people who live across Coogee and Randwick who typically travel to the CBD every day for a living, so its anecdotal. I got speaking to my local MP at a volunteer event recently, she told me that she expected pushback against the light rail, but even she was surprised at the level concern her office was seeing and I know for a fact she and others have consistently brought this up in Parliament. People are complaining,

And yes, they can run the line however they want, but it is counterproductive to everyone for the line to keep being so slow! It makes the line uncompetitive with bus services that mirror it, reducing patronage. If the line, particular the branches have lower than expected patronage (or the buses keep up their patronage), then it reduces the business case for an extension or nay new projects across Sydney. It decreases the chance that the operator will win contracts in the future. The success and good operation of this line is directly responsible for future light rail projects across Sydney.

I come here to hear people's opinion on how the line is operating. I think this is a great forum for discussion of concerns and complaints by and from gunzels amongst other gunzels.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby matthewg » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:38 am

J_Busworth wrote:I live in the "catchment zone" for the L2 Randwick Line. I'm the only person with a care either way about transport in my circle of friends and locals that I know. They ALL have whinged about the light rail to the extent they all refuse to catch it. Of course that's just my circle of people who live across Coogee and Randwick who typically travel to the CBD every day for a living, so its anecdotal. I got speaking to my local MP at a volunteer event recently, she told me that she expected pushback against the light rail, but even she was surprised at the level concern her office was seeing and I know for a fact she and others have consistently brought this up in Parliament. People are complaining,


Well if they don't step it up a notch, any hope of extensions or more lines is dead. There is no way people are going get to behind extensions or even new lines when the 'shining example' cost twice was originally promoted and is slower than the congested buses it was supposed to replace.

And this 'pains' me as I like trams. They are quiet, efficient, low pollution and CAN be fast.
The rapidly developing electric bus is going to remove the noise and pollution factors used to promote light rail alternatives. If they can't even get the faster at moving more people right, the entire concept is dead and buried.
In an extreme case, this line is going to last 10 years only and be replaced by bi-articulated electric buses running directly through from the suburban termini to the CBD.
And Prof Neuman, if he's still in the game (academics never actually retire), will be jumping up and down saying 'I told you so'.

It's almost like there are factions in TfNSW trying to make the tram project fail.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:21 am

matthewg wrote:
Well if they don't step it up a notch, any hope of extensions or more lines is dead. There is no way people are going get to behind extensions or even new lines when the 'shining example' cost twice was originally promoted and is slower than the congested buses it was supposed to replace.

And this 'pains' me as I like trams. They are quiet, efficient, low pollution and CAN be fast.
The rapidly developing electric bus is going to remove the noise and pollution factors used to promote light rail alternatives. If they can't even get the faster at moving more people right, the entire concept is dead and buried.
In an extreme case, this line is going to last 10 years only and be replaced by bi-articulated electric buses running directly through from the suburban termini to the CBD.
And Prof Neuman, if he's still in the game (academics never actually retire), will be jumping up and down saying 'I told you so'.

It's almost like there are factions in TfNSW trying to make the tram project fail.

It has to be put to use now that it's built. There's no way it will be ripped up. It's just an operational problem now and that can be fixed with the will and the right expertise. Never attribute to a conspiracy theory that which can be attributed to plain incompetence. It awaits the Minister to stop apologising for TfNSW and put the boot into his agency and its contractors but I suspect his personal arrogance blinds him to seeing the problem. Buses simply don't have the capacity of a tram system, that's not the solution and the battery-electric bus dream will remain at the margins for some considerable time because they're too costly to set up, don't have the capacity for major routes and will take too long to amortise on lower-patronage feeder routes.... unless cost is no object, which seems to be a "thing" in NSW right now.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Merc1107 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:28 pm

matthewg wrote:And Prof Neuman, if he's still in the game (academics never actually retire), will be jumping up and down saying 'I told you so'.
He gets MORE than his fair share of airtime in W.A. at the moment... Given how the new LR is playing out right now, he's going to start using it as a textbook example of why Perth SHOULD NOT go for light-rail and instead push his hobby-horse, the "trackless tram", as the ideal solution... Ugh.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby neilrex » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:04 pm

matthewg wrote:
Well if they don't step it up a notch, any hope of extensions or more lines is dead. There is no way people are going get to behind extensions or even new lines when the 'shining example' cost twice was originally promoted and is slower than the congested buses it was supposed to replace.


I quite disagree with this assessment. If I lived at Coogee or Maroubra, I'd be in favour of extensions even though I think the light rail is an expensive lemon. The reason I'd think so, is that even if it was still a lemon after extension, the continuous hassle and delay of interchanging would be eliminated. It would still be slower, but much less unpredictably slow.

The voting residents of Coogee and Maroubra outnumber those of, for example, La Perouse, who would still have to interchange if the obvious extensions were made. Although tonyp is obsessed with UNSW srudents, this includes many non-voters , and those who do vote are dispersed all over the places, and will only be going to UNSW for a few years in contrast to the mindset of CBD workers who contemplate having to catch the disfunctional system for another 20 years or more.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:19 am

Obsessed with UNSW students? It's merely a simple fact that they represent a major chunk of the line's patronage. CSELR, with its higher capacity than a bus system, has four objectives:

1. As a CBD circulator in a framework of pedestrianisation of the CBD.
2. As an event feeder for Moore Park and Randwick Racecourse.
3. As a feeder to UNSW.
4. As a suburban service to the suburbs along and beyond the line.

On the last point I'd very much like to see it extended to Coogee Beach and Maroubra Beach (either along the old Mons Ave route or via Fitzgerald). This would at least eliminate the time lost due to interchange for people along those corridors, even if the journey time was a little bit slower. From Maroubra Jct south to Malabar there's supposed to be a metro line (via South Sydney) in the long term. There's also good recreational patronage offering to these two locations, it makes a lot of sense. Whether it will ever happen is another matter.

However, before this, the journey time can be substantially faster. This is achievable.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby thunderbird » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:47 pm

tonyp wrote:Obsessed with UNSW students? It's merely a simple fact that they represent a major chunk of the line's patronage. CSELR, with its higher capacity than a bus system, has four objectives:

1. As a CBD circulator in a framework of pedestrianisation of the CBD.
2. As an event feeder for Moore Park and Randwick Racecourse.
3. As a feeder to UNSW.
4. As a suburban service to the suburbs along and beyond the line.



Point 1. It’s amazing how many people enjoy using a CBD circulator, in all cities, and I think CSELR will do a good job of that.

Point 2. So many punters will prefer light rail to a bus.

Point 3. I’ve made 3 professional visits to UNSW this year, and the CSELR is just so much better than the 891 bus. Hands down. Better boarding and disembarkation experience. No rubbish queues only to not fit on the first couple of buses and somehow find yourself waiting 15 mins for the next service (particularly during the middle of the day).

I really do love buses, but Central to UNSW is the wrong corridor for buses.

Point 4. I’m excited to see how the Kingsford interchange goes. The Randwick terminus does NOT excite me at all with the prospect of interchange. So poorly designed. It’s great for stops at Royal Randwick, UNSW and the hospital. I really do struggle to see successful interchange from buses.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:27 pm

The Bustech buses particularly unsuited. No suspension whatever. The Leopards would have been vastly superior.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby STMPainter2018 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:38 pm

matthewg wrote: Well if they don't step it up a notch, any hope of extensions or more lines is dead. There is no way people are going get to behind extensions or even new lines when the 'shining example' cost twice was originally promoted and is slower than the congested buses it was supposed to replace.

The rapidly developing electric bus is going to remove the noise and pollution factors used to promote light rail alternatives. If they can't even get the faster at moving more people right, the entire concept is dead and buried.
In an extreme case, this line is going to last 10 years only and be replaced by bi-articulated electric buses running directly through from the suburban termini to the CBD.
And Prof Neuman, if he's still in the game (academics never actually retire), will be jumping up and down saying 'I told you so'.

It's almost like there are factions in TfNSW trying to make the tram project fail.

This is EXTREMELY pessimistic of you Matthew; it's not even funny. And much of what you're saying is out right pedantry and incorrect. I mean I never thought I'd say this but I very much agree with what Tony and Neil are saying on the matter. Shocking I know, but hey; even a broken clock is right twice a day. :D But there is NO WAY in hell this system will last only ten years before it's removal for something inferior; that's a ridiculous notion! Just because it happened once doesn't mean it'll happen again and even when it happened the first time, at least they waited more than a decade to rip it all up and I'm pretty sure that most agree that that was a horrific mistake.

And even with the current operational standards - which I stand by are no where near as bad as people are making them out to be - the demand for extensions is still gonna be there, especially after buses are modified and everyone is forced to use the trams. People will get tired of interchanging eventually, especially at a place that is not that well suited for such a practice, ala Randwick tram stop. No, it's inevitable that the current lines will be extended out to their old stomping grounds to places like Coogee and Maroubra and even La Perouse among other places. Poor operation isn't gonna hamper that. I mean look at the Inner West line; patronage on that was initially lower than expected but it was still extended to Lilyfield, and eventually Dulwich Hill (and that only took longer cause politics). Now the line is beyond capacity. The same will happen here with the L2 and L3's.

Point is, even with developing transport technologies, there's always gonna be room for more traditional modes such as trams/light rail and it's wrong to suggest it's a thing of the past cause that's a very short sighted opinion that pollies of the past had when making the ill-informed decisions in removing all these fabulous tram networks worldwide. Just please stop making assumptions about what will happen and passing it off as fact cause it can have consequences.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby STMPainter2018 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:47 pm

thunderbird wrote:Point 4. I’m excited to see how the Kingsford interchange goes. The Randwick terminus does NOT excite me at all with the prospect of interchange. So poorly designed. It’s great for stops at Royal Randwick, UNSW and the hospital. I really do struggle to see successful interchange from buses.

Blame community backlash for that one. The original stop was gonna be located in Belmore Road next to High Cross Park, and would've been a proper interchange. Backlash against the reduction in park size forced them to cut back the terminus to High St and now we have what we have. This is why an extension to Coogee should be on the cards. Hell they can even reuse the original route seeing as it's still there; the only thing they'd have to remove is some of the playground area at Coogee Public School. And of course they can rebuild the original loop terminus if only to make TonyP happy... But this is all a bunch of what ifs.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby J_Busworth » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:10 pm

The biggest thing that they could do to improve the current transfer situation at Randwick is to install a stop for buses to set down at on Avoca Street right before the intersection of high street. That way buses would drop people off right onto the tram, when currently the nearest bus stop is some 300m up the road! Coming back the situation isn't as bad, with a bus stop directly across the road.

A large part of the concern that lead to the move of the Randwick terminus was access to the Hospital. Alongside the concern that High Cross park would be reduced, people wanted a stop closer to the hospital and the current location addresses both of those problems. Obviously this has created the imperfect transfer situation we have today, but I don't think the transfer would have been much better with the High Cross Park terminus.

In terms of extensions, one to Maroubra will be much easier than to Coogee. Imagine the uproar if half the playground space at the primary school was ripped up for a tram line! That would give the community a cause to rally behind, which is very bad for a transport development. Other alternatives down to the beach probably wouldn't work. I presume Coogee Bay Road wouldn't work? If they could make to work it would be interesting.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:36 pm

High Cross Park might have been better for interchange but where the terminus is now is better for local usage, if you observe the traffic in and out of POWH campus. When the proposed inward bus stop is built at the corner of High St the inward interchange will be quite good. There's not much hope of any less inconvenience for the outward interchange which involves both longer distance and a road crossing.

The tram journey time - and the headway management - are the millstones around its neck. It's obvious after three months that the various players in the operation just can't get it together, which doesn't surprise me as they have prior form on IWLR over the years. It needs a whole new operational team with the proper experience next time around. However, I don't think the government cares too much about that now that it is finished. Very lazy performance standards have been set in the contract and as long as they reach their benchmarks and don't incur penalties nobody will get the sack. The local commuters will grumble and O'Neill and Daley will fire off grapeshot at the government regularly, with plenty of grievance to take to the next election, by which time the commuters will probably be used to the regression in the quality of their journey to work. We'll have the capacity increase at least.

Coogee Public School belongs to the government and the government can do as it wishes. I'm sure they'll find some way of compensating the space. I'm just sceptical it will ever happen.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:05 pm

matthewg wrote:
The rapidly developing electric bus is going to remove the noise and pollution factors used to promote light rail alternatives. If they can't even get the faster at moving more people right, the entire concept is dead and buried.
In an extreme case, this line is going to last 10 years only and be replaced by bi-articulated electric buses running directly through from the suburban termini to the CBD.

Are we going to see a repeat of this ?
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