Opal Discussion and Observations

[Rclasstramcar]

Will this eventually include Light Rail and private bus operators?

Cheers,
Ben

[simonl]

You may not be able to imagine it, BUT do you know of one? I suspect not. As usual an uneducated guess.

That's the way it's worked with systems I have dealt with.

I'm pretty sure that Qld, WA, Canberra to name a few have all used largely packaged software. Melbourne was different AIUI.

Will this eventually include Light Rail and private bus operators?

Well it says buses, not government buses. Doesn't say light rail but I'm sure that will be eventually included too.

[moa999]

Given Cubic is rolling it out expect they are using the base Cubic software, which started with the London Oyster card, and they are using MiFare cards

Then again ten years ago they tried using the base ERG software, which powered Hong Kong's Octopus system.

But every system has different configs with zones/ distances/ extra passes / off-peak / concesssions / family-fundays / caps etc

[moa999]

Light Rail is slated for 2015 inclusion according to some of the materials

[simonl]

Given Cubic is rolling it out expect they are using the base Cubic software, which started with the London Oyster card, and they are using MiFare cards

I would have thought that was axiomatic.

[boxythingy]

From SWMH
http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government ... 2a300.html

Rival cities leave Sydney smartcard in the dust

As Sydney residents trial new transport smartcards, other cities are moving fast on ticket systems that won't need them.
Guy Cranswick, an analyst with Australian firm Intelligent Business Research Services (IBRS), said the Opal smartcard was “old technology and already being replaced around the world”.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government ... z2DJFvA4A8

What is this guy on about? Is he suggesting the near field chips inside mobile phones and other devices are that different and perhaps more advanced technology than compared to that in the card?

What if people don't have a mobile phone or a credit/debit card?

Although, it shouldn't take a few more years until Opal can finally take on other forms, eg. Student ID card (People should not have to carry additional things which merely act as a symbol) , watch, keychain, mobile charm etc etc.

It should also not take another decade until one can use any form of Opal (as mentioned above) to buy something from a vending machine or use other things at stations which require money, eg. vending machines.

[stupid_girl]

Each station would be harder than each bus. None of the buses will need fixed barriers, for example.

However the software on the buses will be more complex as it has to work 'offline'. The station validators have a network and back end to 'assist' them. The bus system has to get it right on it's own. And initially there probably will be frequent software updates - the fixed validators will be able to be updated over their land based network, the buses will have to run into their depots.
And at least for the first few iterations, you probably don't want to attempt firmware updates 'over the air' to the bus controllers using the depot WiFi either, but actually have a technician plug into them and verify the update succeeds.

I've had colleagues do 'over the air' updates to mobile devices only to find they stuffed up and had to recall all the devices for 'wired' updating as they would no longer talk to their radios.

Working offline is obviously easier.
The only time you need to be connected to the system ("online") is during the clearance process, which is normally at the end of the day.

[stupid_girl]

I suspect simonl means on the ferries and the buses, the validators are all land based, and always (well hopefully always) connected to the network.
The bus system is more difficult as the validator is on the move and will necessarily have to work without communicating back to the main system in real time.

What's the point to connect to the network except during clearance?

[Tonymercury]

I'm waiting for a 'trip' to be defined before more than ferries are involved.

On the media release it was stated that a limit of eight trips per week would apply.

I am assuming that this means a complete journey is a trip, such as private bus from home to station, train to another station, STA bus to destination.

If each mode is counted as one trip some people are going to get very cheap weeklies.

Does this also mean the end of discounts for quarterlies and yearlies?

Much of interest is still to be revealed.

[Daniel]

From what I understand, a journey is made up from a number of trips. Media releases and articles would have to be very careful in how things are reported as this is a very complex matter to explain. I do feel for the general public who is no doubt completely confused already!

[boronia]

At the moment, I suggest they are referring only to ferry trips, which would be independent events in each instance.

[Daniel]

Indeed, which makes it all the more confusing for everyone.

[Tim]

Ok any wishing to trial opal there a people at all the neutral bay line wharf and on ferrys till 10 am this week they are out on the morning peak only

[boxythingy]

Forms?

[Tim]

Yes will upload photos of them tonight and they are numbered

[simonl]

From what I understand, a journey is made up from a number of trips. Media releases and articles would have to be very careful in how things are reported as this is a very complex matter to explain. I do feel for the general public who is no doubt completely confused already!

That's been pretty confusing in Qld too. They should call the individual "trips" sectors or legs or some such.

[moa999]

I suspect simonl means on the ferries and the buses, the validators are all land based, and always (well hopefully always) connected to the network.
The bus system is more difficult as the validator is on the move and will necessarily have to work without communicating back to the main system in real time.

What's the point to connect to the network except during clearance?

Having had some experience with the Brisbane gocard system (also Cubic), it seems far more live than end of day clearance.
Train trips can be viewed online almost immediately via the online portal, buses normally take a few hours, so I suspect they do some kind of batch upload at depot or changeover

[moa999]

Why I like the use of the word journey in the press releases.
See the Brisbane usage here - uses the term "Trip" for a single segment on a single mode, and "Journey" for multiple connecting trips (max 4 trips under a one hour connecting window)

http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-far ... y-and-trip

[simonl]

Why I like the use of the word journey in the press releases.
See the Brisbane usage here - uses the term "Trip" for a single segment on a single mode, and "Journey" for multiple connecting trips (max 4 trips under a one hour connecting window)

http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-far ... y-and-trip

That has been a regretable terminology.

[kitkat271]

Forms?

I was told by someone in the know that you need to fill out a form in order to get an Opal card. No, not just during the trial, but the real thang as well!!!

Apparently at the moment there are a lot of devils in the detail with this one and there are some utterly stupid features.

[mubd]

That Opal logo looks like it could be used as a consolidated NSW Transport logo in the near future, with those four colours symbolising bus, ferry, light rail and trains.

[matthewg]

Then again ten years ago they tried using the base ERG software, which powered Hong Kong's Octopus system.

ERG tried to roll out a new base platform. There wasn't a lot in common with their previous successes (Hong Kong and Singapore).

They never really got the new platform to work. Tcard wasn't the only failure they had. They stuffed up two other systems as well.

The software used in HK and SG couldn't cope with the complexity of the Sydney fare structure - and in the SG case, ERG didn't own the software anyway, the SG LTA did. All ERG did was interface to a back end the LTA had commissioned others to do.

ERG's main mistake was saying 'yes we can implement that fare structure' (and the NSW government believing the answer). What they really should have done is pushed back and said 'no, that fare structure is too complicated'.
ERG got sucked in by their own hype about how their new platform could cope with anything. It was 'vaporware'.

[matthewg]

I suspect simonl means on the ferries and the buses, the validators are all land based, and always (well hopefully always) connected to the network.
The bus system is more difficult as the validator is on the move and will necessarily have to work without communicating back to the main system in real time.

What's the point to connect to the network except during clearance?

Check for on-line credit top ups, consistency checks, etc, etc.

And in the initial phase - frequent validator software updates.


One thing I think will eventually come back to bite Miki is that when you online 'top up' that top up is sent to EVERY device in Victoria as it can't know where you will want to pick up that credit. That must waste a lot of space in the mobile controllers memory. And as more people switch and use 'auto topups' the list that has to be exchanged every day will just get larger.

I have no idea what option Opal will pick.

I remember London Oyster 'top ups' have to be picked up at your 'nominated station' and can't be picked up on a bus. I can't remember what Brisbane Go-Card does for credit topups.

[moa999]

From my use of GoCard, the auto topups can be picked up anywhere.

[abesty]

With Opal on the way in, here is a lookback at the flyer for the introduction of the "futuristic" magnetic ticker barriers: