WA Transport General Discussion & Questions - 2017

[Mr OC Benz]

It's a New Year and a lot can happen over a year, but please check back to the 2016 thread before posting here to see if your question or query has already been answered or discussed recently.

[simonl]

Getting off topic, but what is the problem with gas? Range or just economics?

[Merc1107]

Getting off topic, but what is the problem with gas? Range or just economics?

I've been told by several different persons maintenance was a key issue - they're environmentally friendly, when they're working properly. Others can explain this further in detail, if they wish.

Public perception is another issue. Given the number of times the CNG OC's in particular have caught fire, some may hold concern for their safety while traveling aboard the bus. In theory, whatever caused these fires should not be an issue in the future with the current buses, or replacements.
Just think, though, if the Government purchased more CNG buses and the same fires recurred - there would be a lot of negative media coverage that could deter people using public transport. Bus fires do happen sometimes - but we all know what the media is like.

Lastly, and something I'll only touch on in-brief. Purchasing CNG-fuelled buses was purely a political move.

[sylar]

Postby Merc1107 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:04 pm

simonl wrote:
Getting off topic, but what is the problem with gas? Range or just economics?

I've been told by several different persons maintenance was a key issue - they're environmentally friendly, when they're working properly. Others can explain this further in detail, if they wish.

Public perception is another issue. Given the number of times the CNG OC's in particular have caught fire, some may hold concern for their safety while traveling aboard the bus. In theory, whatever caused these fires should not be an issue in the future with the current buses, or replacements.
Just think, though, if the Government purchased more CNG buses and the same fires recurred - there would be a lot of negative media coverage that could deter people using public transport. Bus fires do happen sometimes - but we all know what the media is like.

Lastly, and something I'll only touch on in-brief. Purchasing CNG-fuelled buses was purely a political move.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Just a reply I had about the gassies but didnt want to go off topic in the 950 thread

Postby sylar » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:18 pm
The CNG's love to overheat in the Perth summer as well (usually when its 35+ degrees). So far this summer alone i've been on three of them that have overheated where the driver has had to shut everything down, head around the back to the engine hatch (to reset something i assume) then wait a 3 - 5 minutes before powering everything back up. Last summer I was on one that the driver couldn't restart again so the majority of the passengers including myself jumped off and headed home by foot. I get the feeling the CNG's don't cope with the Aussie climate too well

[tonyp]

I have to say, if Labor had remained in power, and the maligned 3002 (an Irisbus Citelis 18 GNC) hadn't caused so much kerfuffle with reliability issues and relatively poor performance, we might already have a fleet of 100% low-floor buses. Alas, it was not to be.

I don't think PTA would be so simplistic as to judge low-floor as a concept by the performance of one purchase where any problems were completely unrelated to it being low floor. They also have the Scania N series to draw on as well as MAN - and even Mercedes Benz is making feelers in the Australian market.

All they have to do is specify "low floor" in the tender and let the industry come to the party, which they most certainly will.

[Merc1107]

I don't think PTA would be so simplistic as to judge low-floor as a concept by the performance of one purchase where any problems were completely unrelated to it being low floor. They also have the Scania N series to draw on as well as MAN - and even Mercedes Benz is making feelers in the Australian market.

All they have to do is specify "low floor" in the tender and let the industry come to the party, which they most certainly will.

Bear in mind there was no insinuation that being low-floor was the root cause of the issues with this demonstrator.

The whole purpose of the CNG artic evaluation nearly a decade ago was to ascertain whether the Scania, M.A.N. or Iveco vehicle was most suitable for Perth. The Scania has spent a lot of time off the road, the Iveco arrived over a year late and hasn't been out a whole lot either. That leaves the M.A.N., which was (and is) the most reliable of the three.

While the Iveco might have had the benefit of being full low-floor, its reliability (or lack thereof) greatly outweighed its potential. And it is at this point I will blame its configuration; as the engine bay is very cramped and rather poorly ventilated to allow for the full low-floor configuration. The engine is a 7.8L producing 310hp, and about 1100nm of torque - it is worked very hard, making extensive use of boost. As a result, even on a mild Summer's day, the heat output is too great for the cooling system. Put simply, there just isn't enough room for a bigger fan + radiator.

[tonyp]

The Scania has been deployed for some time in both Sydney and Melbourne and I haven't heard of any issues, so maybe they've done a better job of a low floor bus for Australian conditions.

I'm talking diesel rather than gas so maybe we're conflating two separate issues. I would most prefer that they're trolleybuses!

[Mr OC Benz]

I've moved the last few posts pertaining to bus fuel types to here to avoid going too off-topic in the 950 thread.

[tonyp]

I've moved the last few posts pertaining to bus fuel types to here to avoid going too off-topic in the 950 thread.

Well it started off (in typical ATDB fashion!) as a question on future orders for artics with view to heavily used routes like 950 being fully supplied with artics rather than lower-capacity rigid buses. It then went into two sub-discussions:

a) gas vs diesel
b) the desirability of progressing to fully low floor rather than just low-entry.

Back to the original point. When the Renaults are withdrawn and this order is completed, does that mean that Perth will have only about 70 articulated buses? If that's the case, I think they need to be ordering a hell of a lot more, preferably low floor (and I won't enter the debate about whether they should be gas or diesel - frankly whatever is most reliable).

[Mr OC Benz]

I've moved the last few posts pertaining to bus fuel types to here to avoid going too off-topic in the 950 thread.

Well it started off (in typical ATDB fashion!) as a question on future orders for artics with view to heavily used routes like 950 being fully supplied with artics rather than lower-capacity rigid buses. It then went into two sub-discussions:

Yep, I tried to split the posts appropriately between the two threads.

Back to the original point. When the Renaults are withdrawn and this order is completed, does that mean that Perth will have only about 70 articulated buses? If that's the case, I think they need to be ordering a hell of a lot more, preferably low floor (and I won't enter the debate about whether they should be gas or diesel - frankly whatever is most reliable).

The total artic fleet following the final withdrawal of the high floor Renault artics should be about:
70x Volvo B8RLEA Euro 6
30x Volvo B12BLEA Euro 5
1x Scania L94UA CNG
1x MAN NG313F CNG
1x Irisbus Citelis 18 CNG
= 103 artics

Which happens to be slightly lower than the number of artics that Perth had during a period of the 1990s (106 artics). Hopefully the next contract will include procurement of artics for future expansion kms, but who knows. The previous contract with Mercedes-Benz delivered zero artics and if the view is that there is no need for further artics, then it's quite possible that it won't be until the contract after the next before new artics are procured as replacements for the existing fleet.

[tonyp]

It boils down to patronage growth on routes like 950 and the point you made that you can only go down to a certain level of close headways to move those volumes of people before the service becomes dysfunctional (buses bunching or overtaking and getting out of order) and costly to run (more buses = more drivers).

You then have to take a hierarchy of steps to keep ahead of that demand: all-door boarding/more doors to reduce dwells, then larger buses with more doors (artics). If that's not enough in the longer term, then you have to look at replacing the bus route with trams or a train line which is obviously a major step.

As all of these steps require a substantial planning and political lead-time and the 950, for example, is virtually doing the work of a tram line already, surely it's time to think ahead seriously about buying buses with higher capacity and more efficient passenger-processing ability?

Of those 103 artics, how many would be needed to fully populate the 950 with artics at peak times?

[actually]

Unless the shifts are rostered to only do 950's it would be nearly impossible to have all 950's run with artics. At the moment some shifts do only one 950 per shift some do 4 or more. Still be a good idea if there were 20 artics (10 for PATH and 10 for Swan) and put them on shifts with mostly 950's it would cover a lot more than they do now....esp good for late evening/night and weekends.

[tonyp]

That sounds like it's a matter of designing the shifts so that a route has its dedicated buses. If a driver goes off shift he/she doesn't take the bus with them. Doesn't sound too hard. It's done in Wollongong where Premier Illawarra operate a number of routes but the 55 (Gong Shuttle) keeps its own buses. I would think the CATs in Perth operate the same way.

[Mr OC Benz]

I did an exercise a while ago on the 950 working out peak bus usage. Although it was based on an older timetable, the peak frequency hasn't changed much. If dedicated buses were to only operate the 950, then about 40 buses (in this case, artics) would be required to operate the entire timetable (standard plus school only and uni only day services). Take out the uni ones which are a big chunk, I'd say as an estimate, about 30 buses to operate those standard services.

With the current economic climate and tender environment in Perth, cost is pretty much the number one consideration before any different operating procedures, and hence why the 950 is mixed with other routes to build more efficient shifts, although I wonder how much difference there would be between mixing the 950 and keeping it separated given the high number of trips operating. There is almost enough buses that it could have its own depot! CATs are segregated, but it is also a separate contract with its own depot and dedicated fleet, unlike the 950 which is shared between two contract areas and four depots which also operate multiple other routes.

PS. Looks like these last few posts would be better off back in the 950 thread.

[Merc1107]

According to some Transperth bloke in today's Sunday Times, the Adele concert on Tuesday night is going to be the biggest logistical public transport exercise (for want of a better phrase) since The Giants from 2015. Well, with all due respect to those Giants - which I never got to see and if I had, I'd've been staying in the city itself and thus not utilising public transport - and to Transperth itself: surely events like Australia Day, NYE & whatever occurred for CHOGM '11, are way bigger logistics than Adele? That said, I"ve never seen such an extensive post-concert lay-on of extra services with any other show in Perth before, with a train running every 7-10 mins on every line up until 1am: even on the Thornlie line!

I'm a complete Luddite and so have zero clue who Adele even is, or what the show encompasses. Could there be other festivities associated with this concert that will not only draw a huge crowd, but have other parties less interested in music visiting?

[Mr OC Benz]

The Giants occurred over three days which helped spread out demand. Likewise with CHOGM. Australia Day, NYE, Royal Show are all busy, but again they are spread out over the course of a day. We're talking a single event here concentrated in the evening, including the busiest part of the PM peak period. There'll be a high concentration of people travelling at the same time to the stadium and back in addition to lots of commuters. Even for a sold out sporting event, Domain Stadium only yields about 43,000 people maximum. Most concert events are way lower and hence many of them are held at smaller venues (such as nib etc). For this concert, we're talking 65,000 people at once. Double whammy - they'll all be travelling right in the middle of the PM peak. Going home afterwards won't be so much of a problem, but with already high utilisation of public transport during the PM peak, there will be capacity issues for passengers travelling during the PM peak. Hence supplementary special event buses running and boosted train services. Also the reason they are unable to run direct Mandurah Line trains to/from the stadium for this event.

Certainly some pretty big milestones for capacity and crowd management for the PTA, but if their history is anything to go by, it should go off without a hitch.

[Merc1107]

if their history is anything to go by, it should go off without a hitch.

Excluding numpties who insist on using their cars (and driving like *expletives* to annoy and/or inconvience those on PT) despite plenty of viable PT options right at their doorstep.
They create localised congestion that slow down, but otherwise don't stop the services.

[pasha241]

i want to ask you why does transperth using Sunday timetable in Labour day and WA day when University still open. Did you think is better use Saturday timetable than sunday timetable. because for labour day and WA day transperth only have little additional service in peak period for University (eg: 950, 72) but other route that goes to university (34, 102) they not have additional timetable. and also sunday 100 & 72 does not extend to cannington, which mean that only 34 that goes to cannington but only 30 minutes. and today I saw 34 is full packed at Afternoon. and also for other student that live in the area that the route that pass their house not operate on sunday.

did you think PTa should use saturday timetable on that two days or at least have more additonal service (100 extend to cannington).

sorry if my writing is not make sense

[sylar]

i want to ask you why does transperth using Sunday timetable in Labour day and WA day when University still open. Did you think is better use Saturday timetable than sunday timetable. because for labour day and WA day transperth only have little additional service in peak period for University (eg: 950, 72) but other route that goes to university (34, 102) they not have additional timetable. and also sunday 100 & 72 does not extend to cannington, which mean that only 34 that goes to cannington but only 30 minutes. and today I saw 34 is full packed at Afternoon. and also for other student that live in the area that the route that pass their house not operate on sunday.

did you think PTa should use saturday timetable on that two days or at least have more additonal service (100 extend to cannington).

sorry if my writing is not make sense

It's just for simplicity and consistency to use the one timetable (which happens to be the Sunday one) for all public holidays, I'll be honest in saying i didn't even realise universities opened on a public holiday, i suppose it depends on historical patronage data that has kept the Sunday timetable in place for public holidays.

[tonyp]

I wonder if Perth will get to the stage (as in Sydney) of having the same timetable for Saturday/Sunday/public holiday? With general extension of trading hours and other activities over the years, Australian cities are pretty busy with people out and about all weekend.

On timetables, it does annoy me that Transperth timetables are still in 12 hour clock. It involves that extra bit of checking especially on the printed tt to see that you're in the right place. I'm sure that in WA like other states the education system has been teaching 24 hour clock at school for some years so that as people have emerged as adults there is a growing number accustomed to the 24 hour clock. It's pretty universal international practice.

[Merc1107]

Yes, universities are open on Public Holidays (barring ANZAC Day and Good Friday), despite being so academically gifted, no-one ever taught the academics what the word "public" in "public holiday" was intended to mean.

Due to the non-existent frequency of the majority of feeders off-peak and on weekends, I walked yesterday, although it appeared as though many students were still using Public Transport.

[goroundandround]

did you think PTa should use saturday timetable on that two days or at least have more additonal service (100 extend to cannington).

I know there's a bit of chicken-and-egg with restricted timetables and patronage, but I've almost never driven a crowded bus on a Sunday or a public holiday.
In summer, there's a bit of a peak of schoolkids going to the beach in the morning, mostly from the local boarding schools, but that's all.

Just one data-point.

[Mr OC Benz]

Aside from those selected routes which have additional trips on public holiday uni days, there really isn't much more patronage across the rest of the network to justify increased services or a Saturday timetable system wide on these days.

The only reason those additional trips even exist is because they're on routes that would get full if no extra services were provided. Especially for the 950 which already carries high loadings on a Sunday regardless. But then you look at other routes that may only carry 10 pax on an average Sunday. This number is not going to increase by much even with uni open, with the exception of routes that may serve a uni or nearby area, but even then, they're unlikely to operate at crush capacity, or even a seated load. And even if they did, for two days of the year, it's not the end of the world.

It's the same reason why very few special events warrant extra capacity on normal routes. They're already carrying pretty low numbers that there is generally always spare capacity. In any case, routine loading data reviews would suggest if extra capacity is required in the future, like what was recently added to the 950 for P/H uni days. At least there is a transport authority willing to be proactive rather than reactive with ensuring no passengers are left behind.

Btw Tonyp, most of Sydney doesn't have the same timetable for Saturday vs Sunday. In STA areas at least, the operating hours are fairly similar (minus an hour or two in the morning and night), but frequencies are generally lower. Funny though given many routes these days can be just as busy, if not busier on Sundays!

To put it in simple terms from the various stats I've seen over the years, I believe Perth's Saturday patronage is about 50% less than the weekday patronage, while Sunday patronage is again, roughly 50% less than the Saturday patronage. So it'd certainly be very hard to justify having the same timetables for both days of the weekend. Not to mention, traffic volumes can vary between the two days meaning that adequate running time for a Saturday service may be too excessive (and thus wasteful and inconvenient to pax) for a Sunday.

I am a strong advocate for longer Sunday operating hours though. Many Perth routes are still on the mentality of a late start and a 7:30pm finish on Sundays. This is slowly changing, but not at a fast enough pace in some areas to attract more users on a Sunday.

Much of Adelaide and SEQ adopt standard weekend timetables (with minor variants at the start/end of day). My impression is that for many routes, this is just about meeting bare minimum service targets than anything else. Or lack of willingness to reinvest those resources where they are needed most. I'd be interested to see the patronage balance between Saturday and Sundays there and whether there are similar numbers Saturday vs Sunday, or if it's a stark difference like in Perth.

It's an interesting topic. I certainly wish there was more data available to the public to be able to analyse and support some of the comments and theories being put forward here.

[PaxInfo]

It's an interesting topic. I certainly wish there was more data available to the public to be able to analyse and support some of the comments and theories being put forward here.

I've looked at numbers for Melbourne. They are not strictly comparable with Perth. One of the oddities is that whereas Perth had highly regulated retail trading hours, most suburbs received at least a basic bus service on Sundays. Whereas Melbourne deregulated retail hours much earlier but did not run Sunday buses in most suburbs until about 10 years ago. Old style shopping trips near trains and trams had 7 day PT service (despite many outlets being closed on Saturday afternoons/Sundays) while bus-served drive-in shopping centres (whose busiest times are Saturday afternoon & Sunday) lacked service at those times.

Some background is provided in this ATRF paper http://atrf.info/papers/2007/2007_Webb_ ... Nguyen.pdf Since it was written many more areas have gained weekend and 7-9pm service. The typical bus route in Melbourne now runs every 15 to 40 min interpeak weekdays and 30 to 60 min weekends.

My observations is that weekend patronage is driven by factors such as:

* Weekend activity along the route. If the route serves a major shopping centre or beach which is active on Sunday then it will do well. Especially if the area is so congested that there is limited or paid parking. If it serves a trades or industrial area or an old-style shopping strip which is busiest on Saturday morning then it won't.

* Demographics. Areas where there are many uni students, inner areas where public transport is good enough for households to have 0 or 1 car, or lower income outer areas with lower car ownership all have relatively high weekend patronage. Outer suburbs with medium or higher incomes and high car ownership generally do poorer. Bus usage there tends to be peaky with high use amongst school students and/or commuters but low at other times. If this holds true for Perth, try comparing the peak:interpeak patronage ratio of a local route feeding into Clarkson, Joondalup or Whitfords with something feeding into (say) Mirrabooka.

* Service levels. If there's no weekend service then people can't use it. However if weekend activity and demographics are favourable enough you can still fill buses on weekends despite 30 - 80 min headways which may still not be attractive to those with alternatives.

https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/about-ptv/pt ... tatistics/ has bus route patronage numbers by day for Melbourne.

The ratio can be a long way from weekdays 100%/Sat 50%/Sun 25%. There are cases where bus occupancy would be higher on weekends than weekdays because there is a mismatch between service provision and patronage on weekends. As an example 788 which is basically the only route with a large low income outer area coastal catchment (similar to Mandurah) has Saturday patronage 70% of weekday. Sunday patronage is only a little less being 56% of the weekday total.

Like 788, Route 683 is a long linear outer suburban route. It replaces a former train line. Sunday patronage is over 50% weekdays with Saturday in between.

439 in Werribee has little residential catchment but serves some major tourist attractions and an (indifferent) beach. There's little patronage difference between weekdays, Saturday and Sunday.

Sundays are nearly as busy as Saturdays with regards to shopping at the big centres. This translates to bus patronage. Eg 623, which serves big shopping centres at Glen Waverley and Chadstone, as well as beachside St Kilda has a Sunday patronage about 80% that of Saturday's. 688, through the scenic Dandenongs, has a similar pattern. In this case too there is negligible patronage difference between Saturday and Sunday. In both these route's cases service levels are pretty much the same on Saturday and Sunday with the latter having a later am start.

561 in Melbourne's north also has a high Sunday to Saturday ratio. This is possibly explainable by it serving a university and there being many students which generally use public transport all 7 days, not just in peak periods. Although its weekday patronage is way higher due to it providing a direct route to campus operating at a good frequency.

552 connects a traditional working class areas of north-east Reservoir with traditional strip shops that aren't necessarily open Sunday. Its Saturday patronage is about half that of weekdays. But Sunday is far lower, being barely one-third that of Saturday. Part of this is due to high frequency during the traditional 5 1/2 day week - 552 has an old-style service with a very frequent weekday interpeak and Saturday morning service for a local bus route (every 15 min). Sunday frequency is much lower, likely affecting patronage. But the fact that it serves a traditional working class area with many seniors (who can spread their shopping over the whole week) might play a part.

Middle suburbs with direct roads between stations on radial rail lines have very high performing bus routes. These include not only the high profile SmartBus orbitals but also routes like the 508, 703, 733, 828, etc. Weekend patronage is also healthy for their typical 30 - 60 min frequency. If you had any spare money for weekend services these routes are where you'd put it as you'd likely get good patronage growth (rather than spreading the same passenger numbers over more services which can happen if upgrades are misdirected).

A large part of the outer east has low Sunday patronage, with car ownership likely a contributor. Eg 690 & 691 which has a low Sunday : Weekday ratio. Many routes in this area also missed out on 7 day upgrades so there are still many 5 or 6 day routes.

If these patterns were to be replicated in Perth, I would expect:

1. Rockingham/Mandurah to have nearly as much patronage on Sundays as Saturday being coastal areas with Sunday trading. Maybe Hillarys routes also?
2. Areas around Curtin (where there are many o/s students) having higher than average weekend patronage
3. Outer homebuyer type areas eg outer parts of Joondalup line and Ellenbrook to have low weekend : weekday patronage ratio (you almost need two incomes to buy a house and that may imply two cars with dispersed employment patterns so people will be driving on weekends too)
4. Lower income areas eg Mirrabooka, Belmont or Midland to have high all day patronage including good weekend usage
5. Direct circumferential routes that feed two or more train lines such as Fremantle - Mandurah - Armadale to do well on all days (and possibly also routes like Warwick - Mirrabooka or Morley in the north). Once you get these up to every 15 min Mon - Sun you have something approaching a versatile network in all directions.
6. The Circle Route to have high weekend patronage (like the populated parts of the orbitals do in Melbourne)
7. Short infrequent sometimes circular routes that only serve one station not to carry many (though their boardings per km might be OK)
8. The 900 series to have high usage all days of the week (being similar corridors to trams in Melbourne)

[Merc1107]

Paxinfo, the information you've posted above is very comprehensive. Thanks for taking the effort to do so.

Just wanted to add my 2¢ in, particularly as regards applying patterns to Perth:
- 114 & 115 both seem to be relatively busy on weekends (not so much on the Canning Bridge to City sector), given both pass through Booragoon Bus Station, adjacent to the large shopping centre. Typically, a number of passengers board when headed towards the city. They alight at Booragoon, and another group of passengers board, alighting along Canning Highway or at Canning Bridge.
My limited experience with the 114 suggests a similar scenario, and the theory holds true during weekdays too.
Its worth noting the same is true for the reverse journey.*

- The 501 is a fairly direct link between Fremantle and Bull Creek. This route also services Booragoon and is probably one of the only Mandurah-line feeders retaining 15min service off-peak and Saturdays, going to 30mins on Sundays/Public Holidays.
Again, easy to see here you're connecting a busy cultural district (Fremantle) with a large-shopping centre, railways and additional bus services at reasonable frequency (Eastbound services from Bull-Creek, and the 114 & 115 from Booragoon).

* Several times now I have been aboard a Sunday afternoon 115 that picks up about half a seated load in the city, then another substantial pickup at Canning Bridge giving standees. In my opinion, this owes itself to the 114 & 115 departing the city together on weekends. Realistically, "opposed" clockface departures, i.e. one at :00 and :30, the other at :15 and :45 would probably spread the load better - as both use Canning Highway and Risely St.