• Advertisement

Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby lunchbox » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:55 am

Fare evasion on Sydney's buses is rife.
On most trips I observe at least one boarder who walks straight past the Opal card reader. It irritates me that I have to pay and they don't.
What to do about it?
There are many places one can lodge a complaint. I suspect most would respond with buck-passing. However, IPART has a current public inquiry considering Opal fares from July 2020. A complaint to IPART about fare evasion on buses might at least start a conversation within government.
IPART's email address is ipart@ipart.nsw.gov.au, or PO Box K35, Haymarket, 1240s (yes, "s")
Make sure you mention "IPART Inquiry into Opal Fares from July 2020".

You might suggest that fines for not using an Opal card should be increased to cover the cost of a substatial increase in the number of ticket inspectors on Sydney buses.
lunchbox
 
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 410 times
Been thanked: 153 times
Favourite Vehicle: Bicycle - no waiting - on time

Re: Fare evasion; Sydney buses.

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:16 pm

I doubt that Ipart would want to be involved.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
 
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:49 am
Location: The Shire
Has thanked: 1136 times
Been thanked: 1238 times

Re: Fare evasion; Sydney buses.

Postby rogf24 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:32 pm

If you think Sydney bus fare evasion is bad, you haven't seen anything yet until you've visited other cities. Start with Melbourne (trams and buses) and that will be give you a shock.
User avatar
rogf24
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:20 pm
Has thanked: 110 times
Been thanked: 206 times

Re: Fare evasion; Sydney buses.

Postby BAMBAM » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:46 pm

lunchbox wrote:Fare evasion on Sydney's buses is rife.
On most trips I observe at least one boarder who walks straight past the Opal card reader. It irritates me that I have to pay and they don't.
What to do about it?
There are many places one can lodge a complaint. I suspect most would respond with buck-passing. However, IPART has a current public inquiry considering Opal fares from July 2020. A complaint to IPART about fare evasion on buses might at least start a conversation within government.
IPART's email address is ipart@ipart.nsw.gov.au, or PO Box K35, Haymarket, 1240s (yes, "s")
Make sure you mention "IPART Inquiry into Opal Fares from July 2020".

You might suggest that fines for not using an Opal card should be increased to cover the cost of a substatial increase in the number of ticket inspectors on Sydney buses.


You can do the same thing if your not happy that one pays and the other don’t. If no one forcing one person not to pay then they are not forcing you to pay either, but you run the risk of being fine. You can either tap and not risk a fine to evade like others and hope for luck you don’t get fined
BAMBAM
 
Posts: 605
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:37 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby ScaniaGrenda » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:07 pm

I've watched some videos of European buses and they have a turnstile gate fitted to them, after you tap on the gate allows you through. Maybe that'll put an end to most of the fare evasions on buses, at least via the front doors.

The only three problems I see with them is;

Retrofitting & the cost
Emergency evacuation - Let's say a bus with one is involved in a crash, if the bus loses power, the engine is lost or turned off then power to the gate stops and will allow you to push through it manually as if you just tapped on.
Paper Tickets - But the driver could have a button somewhere to buzz you in after you've paid for a ticket.
User avatar
ScaniaGrenda
 
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:46 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 33 times
Favourite Vehicle: Scania,Volvo or Mercedes Buses

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby boronia » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:22 pm

lunchbox wrote:Fare evasion on Sydney's buses is rife.
On most trips I observe at least one boarder who walks straight past the Opal card reader. It irritates me that I have to pay and they don't.
What to do about it?
There are many places one can lodge a complaint. I suspect most would respond with buck-passing. However, IPART has a current public inquiry considering Opal fares from July 2020. A complaint to IPART about fare evasion on buses might at least start a conversation within government.
IPART's email address is ipart@ipart.nsw.gov.au, or PO Box K35, Haymarket, 1240s (yes, "s")
Make sure you mention "IPART Inquiry into Opal Fares from July 2020".

You might suggest that fines for not using an Opal card should be increased to cover the cost of a substatial increase in the number of ticket inspectors on Sydney buses.

I don't know how you'd lodge a complaint about an unknown person not tapping on. What do you expect anyone to do about it?
Buses and railway stations have entrances well covered by CCTV so it would be easy to work out exactly how many people fail to tap on. Even at stations with a police presence on concourses, I've seen people walk through and not be challenged. Police walk through trains, but rarely bother to check cards. AOs have no legal authorities if you haven't paid your fare, so people can just ignore them.
Seems the government is not worried about fare evasion, so why should you?
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2020
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 19257
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 290 times
Been thanked: 1869 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby tonyp » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:55 pm

I've never been on a European bus with turnstiles but what I have seen is very regular random fare checks where they will blitz the vehicle in numbers, boarding through all doors simultaneously and taking any transgressors off the vehicle for follow-up after they finish the check. Penalties are steep. Riding moving buses doesn't worry them either. I don't know what ails our local RPOs but they're pretty selfish because it inconveniences the majority of honest passengers who may end up late or miss a connection.

Most operations that whine about fare evasion are the ones that don't have a decent random inspection regime. They want to save money by not having RPOs then complain about losing money because they don't. They can't have it both ways.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 9254
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 1265 times
Been thanked: 1355 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby ScaniaGrenda » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:42 pm

This is one of the videos I was talking about that features a Turnstile, I don't know overseas operators well enough to go further into detail. This example is in Russia.
https://youtu.be/eBoSsBByweM?t=8

It only applies to the front doors, the side and rear doors feature a Turnstile. I can't imagine how they'd fit in on the side doors anyway.

This will only happen here in let's say 5000 years when the state governments have just stepped into making it mandatory that buses must be fitted with full Security screens that in no way can a passenger reach onto the other side of. I'm not exactly sure why operators continue to have buses built with little to no protection for the driver. CDC just had new optimuses delivered for SL two years ago now and the protection is as same as it is on the other buses. Anyway that talk is for another topic so I'll stop here with that but I'm just saying this Turnstile concept will only come into place when the Gov makes full security screens Mandatory.
User avatar
ScaniaGrenda
 
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:46 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 33 times
Favourite Vehicle: Scania,Volvo or Mercedes Buses

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby boronia » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:10 pm

I think some London buses had turnstiles, maybe back in the 70s. Flat fare, correct fare.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2020
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 19257
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 290 times
Been thanked: 1869 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby Merc1107 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:36 pm

ScaniaGrenda wrote:This will only happen here in let's say 5000 years when the state governments have just stepped into making it mandatory that buses must be fitted with full Security screens that in no way can a passenger reach onto the other side of. I'm not exactly sure why operators continue to have buses built with little to no protection for the driver.
I tend to think of security in the same light as fare evasion - drivers wouldn't need to be put in a sealed box if there were a no-tolerance attitude towards anti-social behaviour; in dealing with fare evasion ruthlessly, it's likely you'll remove some proportion of the delinquents anyway.

Unfortunately, even by pursuing such a hardline stance against antisocial behaviour, not all incidents would be averted, so drivers would still need some sort of protection.
In this era of customer service though, I think it is important not to convey the idea to would-be passengers that buses are home to violent delinquents and that it is generally unsafe to travel by bus. I would be interested to see how the negative connotations of a driver in a cage might affect patronage or a passenger's perception of their safety on the bus.
Merc1107
 
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:38 pm
Location: Perth
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 156 times
Favourite Vehicle: High Floor Buses

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby tonyp » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:29 am

Merc1107 wrote:
In this era of customer service though, I think it is important not to convey the idea to would-be passengers that buses are home to violent delinquents and that it is generally unsafe to travel by bus. I would be interested to see how the negative connotations of a driver in a cage might affect patronage or a passenger's perception of their safety on the bus.

You have the example right there in Perth and as far as I can see, the cage doesn't seem to affect either patronage or passenger perception. Ultimately the best course is all-door loading which takes the focus off the driver who then has no interaction with the passengers like a tram or train driver. Then back that up with an effective RPO regime and tough penalties. It's the RPOs who should be doing the enforcement, not the driver. Does Transperth stop the buses for an RPO visit? I've never heard of that anywhere else.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 9254
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 1265 times
Been thanked: 1355 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby moa999 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:41 am

Personally prefer the German approach.
Typically no barriers even on trains but plenty of plain clothed RPOs watching
moa999
 
Posts: 2523
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:12 pm
Has thanked: 429 times
Been thanked: 396 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby Merc1107 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:37 am

tonyp wrote:You have the example right there in Perth and as far as I can see, the cage doesn't seem to affect either patronage or passenger perception.
They certainly affect passenger and driver interaction (does that translate to perceptions? Perhaps) in the few cases of buses without cages that remain today - which seems to be why many of the CAT buses do not have cages fitted. Plenty of drivers would prefer not to have cages, too (whether because it adds blindspots or dampens their ability to communicate with passengers).

So my question was trying to find out if others had noticed this, or if anyone had gone as far as studying it.

tonyp wrote:It's the RPOs who should be doing the enforcement, not the driver. Does Transperth stop the buses for an RPO visit? I've never heard of that anywhere else.
The prevailing attitude in Perth is that it's up to the passengers to carry the correct ticket/smart-card and for Transperth to enforce it with RPOs if they're concerned about it.

On the rare occasion you see RPOs (probably when they have to collect statistics or meet a quota!), they'll usually have a few RPOs stationed at a popular bus stop with a car parked nearby, say at Freo Hospital where there is an embayment to avoid disrupting traffic. In cases where there are multiple infringements to deal with, it seems they'll get the bus to continue and alight once the infringements have been issued.
Merc1107
 
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:38 pm
Location: Perth
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 156 times
Favourite Vehicle: High Floor Buses

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby lunchbox » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:34 am

Just 3 working days to go.
it's easy to make a submission on the IPART website.
Cheers.....
lunchbox
 
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 410 times
Been thanked: 153 times
Favourite Vehicle: Bicycle - no waiting - on time

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:05 am

These same four teenagers (viewtopic.php?p=1058995#p1058995) always get on the bus without paying a fare.

Unless their is a valid reason, is their really some guideline that the driver must pick up passengers if they have no fare, or refuse to pay a fare?
Australia Day - the most important day in Australia
User avatar
Newcastle Flyer
 
Posts: 4473
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: Somewhere between here, there & anywhere!
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 114 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby tonyp » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:19 am

Bus drivers, like tram and train drivers, shouldn't have anything to do with it. The only enforcement method should be plenty of random boardings by RPOs.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 9254
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 1265 times
Been thanked: 1355 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby boronia » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:52 am

Drivers/other staff confronting passengers over non payment of fares is one of the causes of assaults.

The driver is not losing money, the service operator is not losing money. The government is the loser, let them deal with it.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2020
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 19257
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 290 times
Been thanked: 1869 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:00 am

tonyp wrote:Bus drivers, like tram and train drivers, shouldn't have anything to do with it. The only enforcement method should be plenty of random boardings by RPOs.
I'm thinking more of a method like pairs that are made up of 2 RPO and 2 police officers for trains and trams and 1 of each for buses
1000 posts and counting
1st post Sun Aug 11 2013 8:04pm
1000th post Sun Dec 15 2019 4:30pm
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
 
Posts: 1112
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby captainch » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:09 pm

As a former R.P.O I used to say to drivers why get your head bashed in over a $1 fare had a driver glassed in the eye lost the sight in his eye was put off medically unfit thats my job and we work in 2's thats what were are payed for plus we have the powers to fine the person & go to court. YOUR payed to drive a bus collect revenue if they don't pay let it go Also you here drivers say I kick them off the bus!..... and that person gets mugged run over ect they legally can sue the driver the same with school kids. you can NOT refuse a school kid transport to school that kid has something happen to it your the one charged! So stop trying to be a hero. Just drive your bus and have a nice day.
User avatar
captainch
 
Posts: 4513
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:37 am
Location: INGHAM NTH QLD.
Has thanked: 3079 times
Been thanked: 469 times
Favourite Vehicle: was 3533 m/o 687

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:41 am

https://transportnsw.info/news/2020/tap ... e-carousel
Monday 02 March 2020

Transport officers will be targeting fare evaders across the network in the coming weeks with over 800 officers watching to make sure commuters are tapping on. Officers will be at train stations, Metro stations, ferry wharves, and will be boarding buses and light rail across peak and off peak services.

Officers will be carrying Opal card readers to check if you have paid your fare. If you are using an Opal card, officers will check your balance, recent transaction history and the card type (e.g. Adult, Senior/Pensioner, Concession or Child/Youth). If you are using a contactless card or device, officers will check if it is valid and accepted for contactless payments, where you tapped on or off and the fare you paid.

If you are travelling without a valid ticket, you will be caught and you will be fined.

Key facts

On average, up to 30,000 people have their tickets checked every day
While most people pay the correct fare, some people don’t do the right thing
The chances of getting caught are high because officers will be travelling across the whole transport network and at different times of the day

When everyone pays their fares, it means there is more money to spend on extra services and new infrastructure, and we are able to better plan for future services and develop accurate real-time information for you.

It’s now easier than ever to pay for public transport because Contactless payments are available on all public transport in NSW. Opal readers across the network accept American Express, Mastercard and Visa. You can also tap on and off using mobile wallets on smartphones, tablets and wearable devices linked to these cards. You can use a contactless payments for Adult Opal fares and get the same travel benefits as Opal.

Remember, it is an offence to travel on public transport in NSW without being in possession of a valid ticket. If you’re using a mobile or wearable device you must ensure your device has enough charge to complete your journey.

Tap on every time to avoid a hefty $200 fine (maximum fine amount $550).

Find out more about how to pay for public transport in NSW https://transportnsw.info/tickets-opal/opal
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
 
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:49 am
Location: The Shire
Has thanked: 1136 times
Been thanked: 1238 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby boxythingy » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:27 pm

If you are travelling without a valid ticket, you will be caught and you will be fined.

Does this mean people who travel without a valid ticket (not of their fault) where Opal Equipment is damaged/faulty will be fined?

and will be boarding buses and light rail

Does this mean they will not be holding up buses just to do the ticket checks, and instead will travel on the bus service until ticket checks are completed?
:!: Just as Socialism with Chinese Characteristics = Joke = Rapid Transit with Sydney Characteristics
User avatar
boxythingy
 
Posts: 3651
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 1774 times
Been thanked: 274 times
Favourite Vehicle: Former G-Set Tangara

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:48 pm

boxythingy wrote:
If you are travelling without a valid ticket, you will be caught and you will be fined.

Does this mean people who travel without a valid ticket (not of their fault) where Opal Equipment is damaged/faulty will be fined?

A lot of people will use that excuse invalidly so some common sense will need to be used in those circumstances.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
 
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:49 am
Location: The Shire
Has thanked: 1136 times
Been thanked: 1238 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:59 pm

Some bus drivers don't pay any attention to the low balance tone on a reader or the low balance tone with the drivers console error sound when someone has insufficient funds that's where people get away with fare evasion then there is the occasional whole bus opal reader failure where all on board readers are offline would a bus load of people get fined if Transport officers if they check a bus with a opal system failure
1000 posts and counting
1st post Sun Aug 11 2013 8:04pm
1000th post Sun Dec 15 2019 4:30pm
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
 
Posts: 1112
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby Off The Rails » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:14 pm

That's where common sense comes into play - obviously with an bus wide opal error, no one would have tapped on, so it'd be of no use to the officers to check the whole bus.

Cheers! :wink:
Officially the last person to tag off the 381 - 20/5/16.
Second last person to tag off the last timetabled 16 - 23/08/19.
Last person to tag off a Transdev Joondalup service - 19/1/20.
User avatar
Off The Rails
 
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:47 pm
Location: No where near the Gutta
Has thanked: 221 times
Been thanked: 215 times
Favourite Vehicle: Anything with an engine brake

Re: Fare evasion; Public Transport in New South Wales.

Postby boxythingy » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:25 pm

I think in ideal TfNSW land, anyone who hasn't tapped on once they have entered any paid area will be issued with a provisional fine which will be assessed if it is actually a breach of the Transport Act :shock:
:!: Just as Socialism with Chinese Characteristics = Joke = Rapid Transit with Sydney Characteristics
User avatar
boxythingy
 
Posts: 3651
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 1774 times
Been thanked: 274 times
Favourite Vehicle: Former G-Set Tangara

Next


  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Sydney / NSW

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests