Sydney Metro West announced

[swtt]

Courtesy of freepenguin1 on SSC:

https://twitter.com/kt_calderwood/statu ... 5197234177

Premier @GladysB and Minister @AndrewConstance say the Sydney Metro West will now include a station at Westmead, and Concord West or North Strathfield to link to the T1 Northern line

.....and not Rhodes?!?!?!

[grog]

That's how the Western Line will receive relief. Send the Northern Line to Sydney Terminal to induce interchanging to both Metro's. That frees up the Suburbans to be all Western.

Combine that with a full time takeover of the Richmond Line by the Cumberland Line (encouraging shift to Metro NW) and suddenly you have solved your T1 branching problem, which could go a long way to solving Wynyard and Town Hall crowding issues on T1 platforms.

If you really wanted full sectorisation you might have to run all Blue Mountains services (post NIF) through th CBD and terminate at North Sydney.

[neilrex]

Does anywhere in the world actually have a "metro" with hardly any stops, operating at up to 160 km/hr ? Or is that something they just made up ?

I can think of few things more useless than an interchange at North Strathfield.

Get off metro at North Strathfield. Wait 14 minutes for train to Strathfield. Wait another 27 minutes for train to Flemington. Brilliant !

[mandonov]

.....and not Rhodes?!?!?!

That would be quite the detour, and would smash the 20 min CBD-Parra target.

[boronia]

Why wouldn't you get a T2 from Parramatta to Flemington?

[grog]

Does anywhere in the world actually have a "metro" with hardly any stops, operating at up to 160 km/hr ? Or is that something they just made up ?

I can think of few things more useless than an interchange at North Strathfield.

Get off metro at North Strathfield. Wait 14 minutes for train to Strathfield. Wait another 27 minutes for train to Flemington. Brilliant !

I assume the primary use case is to give Northern Line and Central Coast / Newcastle Line passengers a quick connection to Olympic Park and Parramatta.

[tonyp]

Does anywhere in the world actually have a "metro" with hardly any stops, operating at up to 160 km/hr ? Or is that something they just made up ?

It can be anything they want according to the specific context in which it operates. Why does everybody here have to pigeonhole everything? Right from the beginning, this new system is a hybrid metro/S-bahn, somewhat like Perth's but with some more metro-like characteristics like more tunneling and traditional metro rolling stock - which isn't all that different from Perth's, particularly their new C series. It's all along a sliding scale, flexibly conceived to fit the needs. Good "horses for courses" transport planning in my view (which is a rarity for Sydney nowadays).

[mandonov]

https://mobile.twitter.com/7NewsSydney/ ... 9714058240

Sydney Metro West: The state government is exploring underground stops at Camellia/Rydalmere, North Burwood/Five Dock, Kings Bay, and Pyrmont. Report on 7 News at 6pm. Video supplied by the NSW Premier's office. #SydneyMetroWest #7News

[grog]

.....and not Rhodes?!?!?!

That would be quite the detour, and would smash the 20 min CBD-Parra target.

It would also involve water crossings.

[Transtopic]

That's how the Western Line will receive relief. Send the Northern Line to Sydney Terminal to induce interchanging to both Metro's. That frees up the Suburbans to be all Western.

And pigs might fly!

[rogf24]

SMH has a new map which is pretty good, except that it puts Pyrmont in the wrong location, considering that their office is in Pyrmont, I surprised to see it.



According to the SMH, the other stations are Pyrmont, Kings Bay, North Burwood or Five Dock, and Camellia or Rydalmere. From that, I guess Pyrmont and Kings Bay are pretty firm but the others are not. I'm quite disappointed Silverwater or Newington was left out, especially since light rail through the area was axed. That said, I'm happy to see a T1 Northern Line connection, I made this suggestion to their feedback questionnaire a while back where I also suggested them to avoid Strathfield.

[Frosty]

I wouldn't be surprised if they have a short extension of Metro at the city end to Zetland as an alternative to building the Green Square light rail into the City.

[jpp42]

Does anywhere in the world actually have a "metro" with hardly any stops, operating at up to 160 km/hr ? Or is that something they just made up ?

It actually reminds me of the Shin-Bundang line in Seoul. This line is similar to the metro west proposal in many ways - it’s 31 km long with only 12 stations and a high average speed; 37 minutes total - including those stops. It’s touted as an express: it provides a more direct route to Gangnam (compare to Sydney CBD), from the new development area of Bundang (compare to Parramatta/Ryldamere/SOP district). There is a much older Bundang Line following traditional rail corridors with many more stops and had been heavily overcrowded - which Shin-Bundang line is designed to relieve.

The Shin-Bundang line is 100% in tunnel, fully automated. It does have a small express surcharge (900-1200 won depending on distance, above the base fare). The rolling stock is similar to metro stock anywhere - plenty of doors to reduce dwell times and keep up that average speed; few seats despite the surcharge.

[boxythingy]

Does anywhere in the world actually have a "metro" with hardly any stops, operating at up to 160 km/hr ? Or is that something they just made up ?

It actually reminds me of the Shin-Bundang line in Seoul. This line is similar to the metro west proposal in many ways - it’s 31 km long with only 12 stations and a high average speed; 37 minutes total - including those stops. It’s touted as an express: it provides a more direct route to Gangnam (compare to Sydney CBD), from the new development area of Bundang (compare to Parramatta/Ryldamere/SOP district). There is a much older Bundang Line following traditional rail corridors with many more stops and had been heavily overcrowded - which Shin-Bundang line is designed to relieve.

The Shin-Bundang line is 100% in tunnel, fully automated. It does have a small express surcharge (900-1200 won depending on distance, above the base fare). The rolling stock is similar to metro stock anywhere - plenty of doors to reduce dwell times and keep up that average speed; few seats despite the surcharge.

Many examples; MTR West Rail Line, Seoul's AREX (Airport Express)/Gyeongui-Jungang line, Ningbo Rail Transit Line 1's above ground section. Lets just hope the trains won't be delayed, otherwise you could get stuck for an hour or two standing up with the rest of the flock!

[Transtopic]

Pardon me if I appear to be a bit dense. While I'm supportive of the Metro West, I still can't get my head around their reasoning for suggesting that it will provide relief for the T1 Western Line and now it seems the T1 Northern Line.

Contrary to their assertion, it still doesn't address overcrowding on T1 west of Parramatta/Westmead, which is the major problem. This sector needs more Sydney Trains' services from Penrith and Richmond to Parramatta, but there are no more paths available for them to continue into the Sydney CBD on the Suburban tracks from Strathfield. The Main tracks into Sydney Terminal will provide some relief in the short to medium term, but once that is taken up, including additional Central Coast/Newcastle and Blue Mountains Intercity services, there is nowhere else to go. Any future extension of Metro West is more likely to go to Badgerys Creek rather than Blacktown, so how can it possibly provide relief for T1 west of Parramatta/Westmead?

It's an acknowledged fact that more commuters from the west get off at Parramatta than get on, so more capacity is available for those boarding for destinations between Parramatta and the CBD. The only way this overcrowding west of Parramatta could be addressed by running more services is to divert all Richmond Line services via the Cumberland Line, forcing commuters bound for the CBD to interchange to either existing Sydney Trains' services from Penrith/Blacktown or to the West Metro, which wouldn't be popular. Unless this can be done in a seamless manner at either Westmead or Parramatta, then it's just not going to work. It still remains to be seen where the interchange station will actually be located and if in fact it is practicable. Parramatta could be challenging with so many proposed metro lines converging on its CBD. Despite the announcement of a new Westmead Metro Station, its location hasn't been identified. The previous West Metro proposal had a station some distance from the existing station, closer to the Westmead health precinct.

The government is being duplicitous in suggesting that "In turn this (Metro West) frees up space on the existing T1 Western Line from the west into Sydney". What they don't spell out is that more outer western commuters (most likely from the Richmond Line and Toongabbie, Pendle Hill and Wentworthville) will be forced to interchange to continue a journey into the Sydney CBD. If you're coming from Penrith or Blacktown and there's more seats and/or standing room available from Parramatta, why would you bother interchanging to the metro, even if there is a time advantage of 5 or 10 minutes?

Similarly on the T1 Northern Line, the suggestion that it will relieve congestion by offering an alternative option of interchanging to the West Metro at either Concord West or North Strathfield to commute to the CBD is baseless. Why would you bother, particularly for CCN Intercity commuters? I can see the logic though in terms of a connection from the Northern Line to Sydney Olympic Park and Parramatta, but not to the east, unless it is to one of the intermediate stations before the CBD. Does this mean that previously proposed upgrades to the Northern Line to address severe overcrowding are no longer being considered? This puts a whole new perspective on the proposed Northern Line operating pattern after the closedown of the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link, which is still to be officially confirmed. I get the feeling that the existing Sydney Trains' network, despite the government's acknowledgement that it will remain the dominant system well into the future, is being sidelined with only minimal upgrades proposed, instead favouring expansion of the metro system to address its deficiencies. Major investment is needed in both systems.

[Tonymercury]

Also of concern may be the location of the Metro Station at Westmead, which has been described as 'near the hospital complex', Are we to see three dispersed transport sites. ST, Metro and LR? And a bus interchange added on somewhere?

[grog]

I'd say that there is a good chance that what Transtopic describes (Richmond line -> Cumberland line) is exactly what is planned. I'd add that perhaps T2 Parramatta stoppers could be extended to boost local frequency out to Blacktown. This could happen before the Metro West is built to be honest, as it addresses the capacity constraint west of Parramatta. You can argue all you like as to its political popularity and consequences, but it would still work.

Once Metro West is built, if you are heading to the north of the CBD and this is the way the metro enters the city (an assumption) then you might have a 22 minutes journey on the metro from Westmead vs 35 minute on Sydney Trains. That's a pretty good incentive to change - 20 minutes a day of time saving is unlikely to be something people pass over. You also only need a percentage of people to change to make an impact. I agree 100% that this is dependant on them building good interchange facilities - ideally it should be straight down an escalator to platforms bellow the existing platforms. This is one of the reasons I previously suggested that Metro West taking over the locals to Blacktown could be a good idea, as it would have allowed cross platform interchange at Westmead if done correctly. It doesn't seem like that is in consideration.

With the Northern line, I guess it depends on where they plan to send it. You can see a situation where they run the Northern Line into Sydney Terminal, in which case if you are going to have to change at Central anyway, why not change earlier at Epping or North Strathfield for a quicker journey?

I think Sydney Trains is still in for massive investment over the coming years in response to massive patronage growth. We will get track amplifications and signalling upgrades that will have a significant impact on Sydney Trains capacity, and investment in faster alignments in the NSW TrainLink network to Wollongong, Newcastle and Canberra. I think the only thing we won't see is new Sydney Trains lines in the Sydney suburbs or CBD.

[neilrex]

What is the actual evidence for your claim that the T1 line is more overcrowded west of Parramatta, than east of Parramatta ?

From Wynyard, you can usually get a seat on PM trains on T1 trains to the west. You might get some people who want to stand for a long time to save 12 minute, not many of them, I would think. In the AM, it depends more on where you are coming from.

[grog]

This is the source of the claim: https://www.smh.com.au/cqstatic/13fgec/ ... ronage.pdf

There would be a good chance to get a seat on the metro, and as mentioned you only need a portion of people to change to get a benefit.

12 minutes each way is 2 hours a week. I think you would be surprised how much people value their time.

[Transtopic]

Sounds good in theory, but I remain sceptical of how successful it will be in practice, considering Sydney commuters' dislike of changing trains to reach the CBD. Interchanging for destinations outside of the CBD is not an issue and I think most commuters accept that. I suspect that many commuters may not even be aware of what's in store for them as the detail of how these changes will affect their existing travel patterns hasn't been spelt out. By the time this dawns on them, it will be too late to change anything if there is widespread opposition. It's debatable whether they will trade a single seat journey for a marginally faster metro journey with the need to interchange, no matter how convenient. Of course the Government doesn't want you to know that travel times on the existing network could potentially be reduced, if they had the political will to do so, because that wouldn't suit their agenda to make it appear slow and out of date. The Government is making an "heroic" assumption if it believes that commuters will readily accept a strategy of having to interchange to reach the Sydney CBD. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Previous proposals to divert all Richmond Line services to the Cumberland Line and Northern Line suburban services to Sydney Terminal have been around for years, but they have always shied away from it. Why do you think this is so? Could it just be that it wasn't considered to be politically feasible? The mistake that a lot of technocrats fail to acknowledge is that politics are as important as a visionary concept, no matter how attractive it may appear to be in theory.

It still hasn't been officially confirmed what the operating pattern for the Northern Line will be after the closedown of the ECRL for metro conversion. The Government has made a vague commitment that all Northern Line suburban services will run via Strathfield to the CBD, which could mean anything. The imminent announcement of the date for the closedown may resolve this. However, the Government should be careful not to alienate its supporter base in the Northern Line electorates, especially Ryde with major stations at Eastwood, West Ryde and Meadowbank, which could potentially put that seat at risk.

While the likes of London's Crossrail proposes a link between outer suburban Overground lines through the city centre to reduce interchange and inconvenience to the Underground on the fringe of the city, we're going in the opposite direction by encouraging more interchange. Dare I say it, but Bradfield's original vision for suburban lines passing through the CBD via the City Underground, rather than interchanging at Central to trams, is as relevant today as it was a century ago. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be exclusively DD.

[grog]

You certainly can’t blame people for historically disliking changing to get to the CBD - changing between infrequent services is inconvenient and blows out travel times. When people are given convenient interchange, however, the resistance is reduced. You can already see it in a couple of locations on the Sydney Trains network. I’m personally familiar with large numbers of people changing cross platform at Glenfield from SWRL services to T8 Airport line services and vice versa, and I also see many people changing from T2 services to T1 services at Strathfield to save a few minutes. People really do value their time and will change trains to save some of it.

BTW, if you wanted to make Sydney Metro West more like crossrail you would have it take over the T1 locals out to St Marys - this would make Sydney Metro West very similar in distance, rolling stock and service style.

[tonyp]

Interchange becomes attractive when there is a density and frequency of services that mean that you step from one service to another with little wait. This is widespread in Europe but Perth is the only city in Australia that I see this on a signifcant scale. The whole Perth public transport system is based on interchange and huge patronage growth over the last couple of decades indicates that people are quite happy with that. I feel that the one-seat journey preference in Australia has actually been naughtily cultivated over the last 60 years by extending bus services out along infinite routes to make the mode more attractive for people to use. Of course, this results in eventually running out of capacity with such small vehicles and ultimately you get the inevitable transition to core routes with interchange, such as is happening in SE Queensland (GCLR, "superbus" proposal for core services on Brisbane busways).

[Tonymercury]

The whole Perth public transport system is based on interchange and huge patronage growth over the last couple of decades indicates that people are quite happy with that.

Which now seems to be taking a break- http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/perth ... yfqhj.html

[tonyp]

The whole Perth public transport system is based on interchange and huge patronage growth over the last couple of decades indicates that people are quite happy with that.

Which now seems to be taking a break- http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/perth ... yfqhj.html

That's a result of the statewide economic downturn following the end of the mining construction boom and is well-documented. There are less people going to the CBD which has a higher office vacancy rate. Other areas of the economy are also affected, among which carpark use and revenue is also down. They're hoping it will "correct".

[lunchbox]

WHERE'S THE METRO-WEST CBD STATION TO BE?

Surely a prime consideration must be to provide convenient interchange with as many other lines as possible. "Stacked" platforms below the Metro South West platforms at Central should be considered now, even though it would require variations to the Central Walk construction contract. The big long-term benefit would be cross-platform interchange, at least between the 2 Metro lines. Central is also the only site which can provide direct interchange with every other line in the city, including, of course, the 2 light rail lines. The Central precinct probably has more potential for redevelopment & renewal than any other on the CBD-fringe.