Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Adelaide / South Australia Transport Discussion
jibb
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »

Skexis wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:48 pm
Merc1107 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:44 pm Even if one takes the cynical perspective on these changes, how they can they 'increase confusion'? There are less routes and variations as a result of the proposals.
It will increase confusion because, in the Outer South at least, the drivers won't have a clue about routes they do not drive and as all the route numbers are changing the public won't know which bus goes where.
Adelaide Metro are going to have to do an extraordinary marketing job to promote these changes(that if they go ahead and that's a big "if".
They will also have to make sure new public timetables are easily available-a big test for them.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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jibb wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:14 pm Well said TT-this is so true-it is the same all across the Metro area.
How about no direct bus service from Flagstaff Hill/Aberfoyle Park to the City-they are cancelling the G20/G21/G22x which have 11 departures on weekday mornings between 7-8am,and replace with 330 which will drop passengers at Flinders Medical Centre to catch the train to the City.
This bus will then continue to the Marion Shopping Centre. Or they can catch the X331 that terminates at Flinders Medical Centre.
The all stops train to the City will deliver them to North Terrace, where they will have the choice of walking into the CBD or catching a Botanic Gardens Tram or a Glenelg tram to King William Street or Victoria Square.
Previously their bus dropped them off in either Victoria Square or King William Street.
This new journey will take them up to 30 minutes longer-so much for Mr Knolls-faster, direct services.
Don't forget once the extension to Flinders Medical Centre is complete, the service's will still be only every 30mins.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »

Thats going to useless.
The people of these suburbs ,should be up in arms-this is diabolical.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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Will the Flinders train service even run on weekends? There are currently no trains that serve the branch from Woodlands Park after hours.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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leftyandy76 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:55 pm
Don't forget once the extension to Flinders Medical Centre is complete, the service's will still be only every 30mins.
Where did you hear that?

How many people actually use the 11 services to the City?

Why should my hard earned tax dollars go to people who have a frequent service connecting with a train?
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jibb
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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Loadings are very good,thats why there are so many City buses.

The train service will be totally inadequate.
People will not accept an inferior and longer journey.
The Public don't like transferring from 1 service to another.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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TA3001 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:44 pm Will the Flinders train service even run on weekends? There are currently no trains that serve the branch from Woodlands Park after hours.
Yes it will run 7 days a week.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Big Engine Mechanic »

I can't believe it's finally being built, they have been saying they're going to do it for the last 20 years
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Skexis »

jibb wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:56 pmThe Public don't like transferring from 1 service to another.
^^This. Something the planners never seem to grasp.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Merc1107 »

Skexis wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:09 pm
jibb wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:56 pmThe Public don't like transferring from 1 service to another.
^^This. Something the planners never seem to grasp.
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. In cities that aren't too big, they're an invaluable service to have which might help attract people from their cars. Where there's a train line nearby; whether you force a mode change or not depends whether there is any time saving to be had and where the passengers are making their journeys to and from. Given the Tonsley line is relatively short, I imagine there's a case for both the train and bus to coexist, yet not necessarily be in direct competition with each other - similar situation(s) exist here in Perth, and seem to work quite well.

I do wish to thank all of you for your local insights. Obviously how a lot of this looks on a map to the outsider is different to the perception of the changes locally, so the examples you've all used have been helpful, thanks :D
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by PaxInfo »

Skexis wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:09 pm
jibb wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:56 pmThe Public don't like transferring from 1 service to another.
^^This. Something the planners never seem to grasp.
I think planners do accept that transferring is an inconvenience.

They would generally only favour networks that increase the need to change if there is a higher goal.

That higher goal could involve any or all of the following:

1. HIgher frequency in the suburbs (in cities where buses are diverted from paralleling trains to feeding them)

2. Better access to more destinations (especially outside the CBD)

3. More reliability (very long routes can be less reliable)

4. Put service where it's most needed (eg you might split very long routes where usage varies greatly on them or only run some trips to the end)

Perth is a good example of this working. But before they did they got their trains up to good frequencies. And eventually they got many of their feeder bus routes up to every 10 min in peaks (rarely worse than 20 min). Also their stronger cross-suburban routes run every 15 min off-peak (which the new Adelaide network doesn't do). And they have very high train speeds on their main lines due to widely spaced stations making them consistently faster than parallel buses.

If you look at both the Joondalup and Mandurah lines there's broad strips of residential areas either side (a bit interrupted in parts of the south). Whereas much of the Seaford line runs nearer the coast (limiting its catchment) while much of the Gawler line runs through not much (with development instead centred on the main roads with buses). Also Adelaide is narrower than Perth so that for trips from south to north it's less of an impost if you do change in the CBD. Being a smaller city quieter roads might make radial road travel more competitive than a larger city where rail would be faster.

The above might make the Perth model harder to apply in Adelaide, especially in one go and especially where trains are slower and less frequent than Perth. Also Adelaide's existing PT now is better than Perth's in the early '90s (Perth then had nothing as good as a Go Zone on a single route) so there would be more people complaining they've lost something in Adelaide now than Perth back then.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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Lt. Commander Data wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:44 pm
leftyandy76 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:55 pm
Don't forget once the extension to Flinders Medical Centre is complete, the service's will still be only every 30mins.
Where did you hear that?

How many people actually use the 11 services to the City?

Why should my hard earned tax dollars go to people who have a frequent service connecting with a train?
A single line working of that length will never get a serviceany more frequent than 30mins, but if they had the money to spend on duplifying the line as far as Clovelly Park, then frequencies could be increased to a 15min headway.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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The train journey will be 24 minutes-the bus journey journey up to 24 minutes-there is a 5-10 minute walk form bus drop off to the new station.
Passengers arriving at the Adelaide Railway Station either walk into CBD or wait to catch tram up North Terrace or Glenelg tram along King William Street to Victoria Square. passengers who currently wish to alight or board buses along Goodwood road will have to wait at FMC for a connecting route3 bus(all stops) along Goodwood Road.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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You have overlooked 2 important facts-firstly they have to walk from the Flinders Medical Centre several hundred meters to the new station,they then have to wait for their train, which will only run at 30 minute frequencies.
On arrival at the railway staion as i have already pointed out they then have to find their way into CBD,by either walking or taking one of the 2 tram routes. This all takes time.
People don't like transferring between modes. It will be a longer journey.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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Just because the timetable shows 37 mins doesn’t mean it takes 37 mins. The G22X runs express to city and arrives there way before the 37 mins, speaking from experience closer to 25 provided there’s not major roadworks or a vehicle accident. Train times are accurate, buses especially in peak have considerable time allowance built in to allow for disruption and to give driver a reasonable chance of starting the next trip on time.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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Not every person who catches G20/G21 goes to the City. Many passengers alight or board a bus along Goodwood Road. Many are schoolchildren.
None of this has been taken into consideration by the planners, whose job was to cut all or part of existing services to pay for the extension of and increase of Go-Zones
Very good article in today's In Daily by Tom Wilson-
http://www.indaily.com.au/opinion/2020/ ... -shake-up/
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by TT »

A great article, I only hope that Minister Knoll and some of his advisors read it and take some notice of it.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »

TT wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:53 pm A great article, I only hope that Minister Knoll and some of his advisors read it and take some notice of it.
Tom is not only compiling a detailed response to the planned changes, but he is also sending a copy to the Minister.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Eurostar »

The former tram network done with buses might work
Next station is Victoria Square. Change here for all trains.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by TT »

Just heard on one of the radio news services that Liberals now claiming that it's about 500 stops to be removed and another 400 stops that will be converted to "School service only" stops with the proposed changes. This is in response to Peter Milinauskas' claim that the number of stops to be removed is closer to 1000. Stops like Victoria Rd, Taperoo, Military Rd at Tennyson, Seaview Rd at Henley South, Marlborough St at Fulham Gdns, and much of Cross Rd (from Unley Rd to Marion Rd) would be just some of those stops that will become School Only stops: so Knoll is claiming that these aren't stops being removed. Stretching the truth, me thinks!
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Big Engine Mechanic »

Planning ?! They've been planning for a long bloody time I tell ya. I agree with you 2MSJ "Who the **** is Windy?'
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

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Unless there are more bus lanes and B lights the bus will be stuck in the traffic jam like everybody else on the road.
Next station is Victoria Square. Change here for all trains.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Eurostar »

The 222 should go back to its original route running between City and Gepps Cross with F buses running pick up only until Stop 25 on the outbound and set down only after Stop 25 on the inbound. The 224/224F should revert to running along Port Wakefield Road then Salisbury Highway, 225/225F running along Main North Road and Mawson Lakes Boulevard.
Next station is Victoria Square. Change here for all trains.
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Eagle Eye »

Eurostar wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:41 am The 222 should go back to its original route running between City and Gepps Cross with F buses running pick up only until Stop 25 on the outbound and set down only after Stop 25 on the inbound. The 224/224F should revert to running along Port Wakefield Road then Salisbury Highway, 225/225F running along Main North Road and Mawson Lakes Boulevard.
That's all good and well, but how about people in Mawson Lakes through Mawson Lakes Bvd, and those wanting to travel between Mawson Central and anywhere along Main North Rd?
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »

Former Transport supremo(headed our Public Transport network quite a few years ago),and now Professor of Transport at UNI SA, Professor Derek Scrafton absolutlty laid into Stephan Knoll on Leon Byner"s morning program on fiveaa this morning. Highly critical of the whole plan, the axing of routes and bus stops.
As well he said the survey on DPTI by McGregor and Tan was of concern ,because they will summarize all the public comments and precis them into a report to DPTI and the Minister, saying they won't see all the comments-this has the ability to skew the overall report to support the Governments plan..
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