Perth trolleybuses

[Roderick Smith]

Roderick

[Guy_Arab]

I have left the heading open for additions. All of mine will be 1969, but others may not be.
690112Su Perth (WA) trolleybus depot. (Roderick Smith)
What was the depot called? East Perth? Xxx St?

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

In my day it was called Causeway Depot Trolleybus parking area jf interested get my book called Destination West Leederville from Friends of Hawthorn tram Depot web site
Guy Arab

[Bedford-29]

Another picture of Causeway depot with Sunbeam F4s trolleybuses.Picture from the Graeme Turnbull collection.

[Roderick Smith]

Roderick

[panther998]

Another picture of Causeway Depot with Sunbeam F4 trolleybuses, from the Graeme Turnbull collection.

More accurately, Bedford-29 (previoulsy / previously known as Untied Diesel 15), a picture showing part of the trolleybus parking area which was located some 300 yards to the East of the MTT's Causeway Depot, as already clarified by Guy_Arab. But NOT the Causeway Depot itself.

[Guy_Arab]

Another picture of Causeway Depot with Sunbeam F4 trolleybuses, from the Graeme Turnbull collection.

More accurately, Bedford-29 (previoulsy / previously known as Untied Diesel 15), a picture showing part of the trolleybus parking area which was located some 300 yards to the East of the MTT's Causeway Depot, as already clarified by Guy_Arab. But NOT the Causeway Depot itself.

Main Causeway depot not used after close of Tramway System all used the trolleybus parking area near river
Guy Arab

[panther998]

Main Causeway depot not used after close of Tramway System all used the trolleybus parking area near river

Sorry, Guy_Arab, but I find myself at a loss to comprehend part of your message. To me, it is unclear and very confusing.

Allowing for the expectation that any transport historian who is truly worthy of that title knows the Perth 'Tramway System' closed in 1958, just before the MTT [more accurately the Metropolitan (Perth) Passenger Transport Trust] began taking over the operation of Perth's bus and trolleybus network, please do not be offended when I question 2 elements of your (mystifying) statement(s).

First, will you kindly clarify what you mean by 'Main Causeway depot not used after close of Tramway System' ?
There is copious evidence to the contrary, so presumably your rather sweeping statement is subject to one or several conditions / variations.
Such as -
'the main Depot (carbarn) was no longer used to house the fleet of operational trolleybuses, only those undergoing overhaul / repair.'
OR
'the main Depot (carbarn) was no longer used to house ANY operational motor buses and trolleybuses, only those undergoing overhaul / repair.'
OR
. . . . ????

Second, when you say 'all used the trolleybus parking area near river', do you really mean that -
all motor buses and trolleybuses based at Causeway (East Perth) Depot used ONLY / SOLELY the trolleybus parking area near the Swan River, and the former carbarn remained vacant / unoccupied by such vehicles
OR
all operational trolleybuses were garaged / housed in the trolleybus parking area near the (Swan) river, while most operational motor buses continued to be housed in / operated out of the Causeway (East Perth) Depot (former carbarn ),
OR
did you mean something different, but have failed to adequately / properly express it to your kindred ATDB members ?

Again my apologies and all due respect, Guy_Arab, but I truly do find your comments highly confusing, and am therefore compelled to seek clarification, per the above.

[Guy_Arab]

Main Causeway depot not used after close of Tramway System all used the trolleybus parking area near river

Sorry, Guy_Arab, but I find myself at a loss to comprehend part of your message. To me, it is unclear and very confusing.

Allowing for the expectation that any transport historian who is truly worthy of that title knows the Perth 'Tramway System' closed in 1958, just before the MTT [more accurately the Metropolitan (Perth) Passenger Transport Trust] began taking over the operation of Perth's bus and trolleybus network, please do not be offended when I question 2 elements of your (mystifying) statement(s).

First, will you kindly clarify what you mean by 'Main Causeway depot not used after close of Tramway System' ?
There is copious evidence to the contrary, so presumably your rather sweeping statement is subject to one or several conditions / variations.
Such as -
'the main Depot (carbarn) was no longer used to house the fleet of operational trolleybuses, only those undergoing overhaul / repair.'
OR
'the main Depot (carbarn) was no longer used to house ANY operational motor buses and trolleybuses, only those undergoing overhaul / repair.'
OR
. . . . ????

Second, when you say 'all used the trolleybus parking area near river', do you really mean that -
all motor buses and trolleybuses based at Causeway (East Perth) Depot used ONLY / SOLELY the trolleybus parking area near the Swan River, and the former carbarn remained vacant / unoccupied by such vehicles
OR
all operational trolleybuses were garaged / housed in the trolleybus parking area near the (Swan) river, while most operational motor buses continued to be housed in / operated out of the Causeway (East Perth) Depot (former carbarn ),
OR
did you mean something different, but have failed to adequately / properly express it to your kindred ATDB members ?

Again my apologies and all due respect, Guy_Arab, but I truly do find your comments highly confusing, and am therefore compelled to seek clarification, per the above.

Main depot was pulled down and the depot area was for buses.A new admin building was built on Adelaide trce end new building on Hay St was built that was around 1961 the old Workshops was replace in Kensington St East Perth
Guy Arab

[panther998]

Thanks Ric - just wanted to clarify the 'timing and terminology' involved. Few ATDB readers possess your first-hand knowledge, or even a smattering of understanding of 'what went before', so it is vital to be clear about certain key details for the sake of historical accuracy and comprehension. Pretty much a case of ''Lest We Forget'' ....
I do hope you agree.

[Roderick Smith]

Roderick

[Roderick Smith]

Roderick

[Guy_Arab]

if you are really interested in Perth trolleybuses get my book on it called Destination West Leederville obtained from Friends of Hawthorn Tram Depot on lin e Guy Arab

[panther998]

Floreat (Perth, WA). Trolleybus 883. Thurs.6.2.69. (Roderick Smith)

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

A stop which still exists in the Transperth network (No 17697), but served by only one 'regular' bus route (83) on weekdays, nil weekend or Pub Hols service, it seems.
Current location is Cargen Cres, but it was always Dumfries Place when I worked for the MTT in the 1970s and 1980s. At that time, this stop was the terminus for route 90 which was essentially a short-working of route 92, a 'motor-omnibus' extension of the trolleybus route to serve what was new housing in Wembley Downs back in the 1950s and 1960s.

Presumably Guy_Arab will tell me if I've got this (badly or slightly) wrong, but the WAGT was hard pressed financially in those days, so could not justify the considerable cost of extending the trolleybus overhead into the many housing developments springing up in various parts of Perth just beyond the 'reach' of the established wires. Also, WAGT had made the mistake of specifying a centre doorway on the Sunbeam trolleybuses, which rendered them unsuitable for one-person operation, hence subject to higher costs for crew wages. From what I have read in various publications over the years, including WAGT Annual Reports, I gather it was considered uneconomic to rebuild the Sunbeams with a forward position doorway, compared with buying new 'motor-omnibuses'. I am also aware of indications that the Trade Union covering WAGT operating staff possibly (if not probably / definitely) exerted some degree of influence over the body layout of the 50 Sunbeams, and attempted (unsuccessfully) to have the 50 Guy Arab III 'motor-omnibuses' similarly fitted. For reasons that remain something of a mystery to me, WAGT management capitulated on the trolleybuses but held firm on the 'motor-buses'. Some might suspect there was some sort of 'political' or 'sweetening' deal involved, but I have yet to sight firm evidence of such.

Then again, in my long experience of reading Annual Reports submitted by various Government entities, I've found that one often needs to have an inkling of what is (seemingly) reported and in what format / terms, versus what may have been omitted or 'glossed over'. Not casting any aspersions on anyone in the public sector or accountancy fields, simply making a personal observation.

[Guy_Arab]

Floreat (Perth, WA). Trolleybus 883. Thurs.6.2.69. (Roderick Smith)

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

A stop which still exists in the Transperth network (No 17697), but served by only one 'regular' bus route (83) on weekdays, nil weekend or Pub Hols service, it seems.
Current location is Cargen Cres, but it was always Dumfries Place when I worked for the MTT in the 1970s and 1980s. At that time, this stop was the terminus for route 90 which was essentially a short-working of route 92, a 'motor-omnibus' extension of the trolleybus route to serve what was new housing in Wembley Downs back in the 1950s and 1960s.

Presumably Guy_Arab will tell me if I've got this (badly or slightly) wrong, but the WAGT was hard pressed financially in those days, so could not justify the considerable cost of extending the trolleybus overhead into the many housing developments springing up in various parts of Perth just beyond the 'reach' of the established wires. Also, WAGT had made the mistake of specifying a centre doorway on the Sunbeam trolleybuses, which rendered them unsuitable for one-person operation, hence subject to higher costs for crew wages. From what I have read in various publications over the years, including WAGT Annual Reports, I gather it was considered uneconomic to rebuild the Sunbeams with a forward position doorway, compared with buying new 'motor-omnibuses'. I am also aware of indications that the Trade Union covering WAGT operating staff possibly (if not probably / definitely) exerted some degree of influence over the body layout of the 50 Sunbeams, and attempted (unsuccessfully) to have the 50 Guy Arab III 'motor-omnibuses' similarly fitted. For reasons that remain something of a mystery to me, WAGT management capitulated on the trolleybuses but held firm on the 'motor-buses'. Some might suspect there was some sort of 'political' or 'sweetening' deal involved, but I have yet to sight firm evidence of such.

Then again, in my long experience of reading Annual Reports submitted by various Government entities, I've found that one often needs to have an inkling of what is (seemingly) reported and in what format / terms, versus what may have been omitted or 'glossed over'. Not casting any aspersions on anyone in the public sector or accountancy fields, simply making a personal observation.

lets look back to when 0il refinment was built the Government of day said they would support by buying buses, thence the MTT was formed Ted Adams said he would not have Trams and Trolleybuses in the fleet as he was to be the MTT chairman. Thence the trams went first ,but Government could not afford to replace the Trolleybuses at that stage. it was about 8 years before they where replaced . The narrows was being built so it was suggested that Claremont line be devorted through Suby. Am told by good authority who later became chairman That Ted Adams said no way. At the time to make the trolleybuses to expense to run .Down right Trolleybuses Tyres and Batteries where given where given second hand and new ones charged to Trolleybuses but given to Buses.
Alot of dirty trick where played in those days.Thing would have been different had the WAGT had taken on the MTT Beford extention would have happen Floreat would have gone to City Beach. At one stage it was planned to Put Trolleybuses around to Fremantle and on to Cannin g Hwy back to Perth. You can guess you played Merry Hell to stop that.
Guy Arab

[Roderick Smith]

I guess that this is 883, which I photographed at Floreat, taken as I alighted.
Perth trolleybus. Thurs.6.2.69. (Roderick Smith)

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[Roderick Smith]

Roderick

[Herbert]

690206Th-23-Floreat-883-RSmith-ss.jpg

image.php.jpg

[Roderick Smith]

Beautifully done. I love 'then & now' comparisons.
Any advice re the location further back?

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor

[Roderick Smith]

Roderick

[Roderick Smith]

Roderick

[Roderick Smith]

Roderick

[Bedford-29]

Here is another picture of the Floreat terminus.Picture from the Graeme Turnbull collection.

[panther998]

Perth (WA). Trolleybus 888. (Roderick Smith)
Piecing the clues together: There were only two routes at this stage, running around a park in the central city as the inner terminus. The wires to the stabling yard weren't revenue.
I started at Floreat; I alighted where the two routes converged, and have now gone to the other terminus (Wembley). The further shots show the inner terminus, then I left that afternoon at the end of my all-lines-ticket month.

Roderick, many thanks for posting these photos. Very interesting stuff.

My understanding is that there were TWO trolleybus termini situated within the suburb of Floreat Park, one at Dumfries Place (as per your photos of 883 at that location) near the northern end, the other at Louth Rd (as per your photo of 888) on the southern fringe. Both routes also passed through the suburb of Wembley, one directly along Cambridge St and ending at the Louth Rd turning loop, the other one diverging north onto parallel Grantham St to terminate at the Dumfries Place loop.

I'm not sure about the route numbers involved, but I believe that, to reduce confusion for pax and staff, the Cambridge St route to/from Louth Rd was described in timetables and signage as the 'Wembley' route, while that along Grantham St to/from Dumfries Place was identified as the Floreat (Park?) route. But I'm happy to be corrected by 'local' ATDB members who possess better info.
I do know for fact that both termini continued to be used by the motorbuses that replaced the trolleybuses from September 1969, albeit on a gradually diminishing scale, into the 1980s, and not necessarily traversing the trolleybus routes exactly.

The Perth or 'CITY' terminus for both routes circumnavigated Wellington Square, a public park bounded by Wellington, Bennett, Wittenoom and Hill Streets, and until quite recently (less than 3 years ago?) was still the terminus for Transperth bus routes serving Leederville, Wembley and Floreat. During the 4 years (1979-1983) when the Perth - Fremantle suburban train services were 'replaced' by bus services, the Bennett St side of Wellington Sq was the terminus for those buses. However, I think your photo of 888 at the 'inner' terminus was probably taken in Wittenoom St.

[adx666]

What a fantastic , informative thread

Cracking read all!

[900 series]

The Perth or 'CITY' terminus for both routes circumnavigated Wellington Square, a public park bounded by Wellington, Bennett, Wittenoom and Hill Streets, and until quite recently (less than 3 years ago?) was still the terminus for Transperth bus routes serving Leederville, Wembley and Floreat.

It was progressively wound down:
>Aug-10, reduced to only the then-85 and 95 combined services after hours and on weekends
>Aug-11, reduced to only before/after hours (85 and 95 were replaced by daytime routes 84 and 92, now 82 and 83, at this time)
>Jan-14, deleted altogether when Roe Street Bus Station opened (with incompatible road layouts for exiting and heading further east)