• Advertisement

mornington rail

Melbourne / Victoria Transport Discussion

Moderator: MAN 16.242

mornington rail

Postby MCI9 » Sun May 08, 2016 9:39 am

with getting more train upgrades its about time pollies looked at restoring rail services to mornington their throwing money elseware its needed mornington to melb has more potentional than crib point line not saying crib point not needed but look at the population extend and electrify give the peninsular a go
MCI9
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby 3805 » Sun May 08, 2016 10:49 am

Well said MCI9...
Комитет государственной безопасности​
User avatar
3805
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:56 pm
Location: Lubyanka, MOCKBA (Moscow)
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby krustyklo » Sun May 08, 2016 8:57 pm

with getting more train upgrades its about time pollies looked at restoring rail services to mornington


You may possibly be interested in this: http://anthonyalbanese.com.au/labor-backs-baxter-electrification . Whilst it certainly isn't all the way to Mornington, it would be a good start.

The only question I have is whether the journey time would make it worth reopening the line as opposed to better bus priority. The current bus timetables seem to have around 20 minute journey times for the most direct route before the morning peak and in the evening, and nearly 30 during the day. The current train takes 11 minutes to get from Frankston to Baxter. How long did it take to get from Baxter to Mornington before it closed in 1981? I would guess around 10-15 minutes? Plus the bus runs more directly to the nearest likely catchment of Frankston, whereas the train goes more indirectly via Baxter.

If the bus times could be reduced to be not much more than 20 minutes consistently with bus priority, and the train was closer to 25 minutes, then it could be argued bus priority would suit more people for the same outcome.
User avatar
krustyklo
 
Posts: 2647
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Bundoora, VIC
Has thanked: 183 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby BroadGauge » Mon May 09, 2016 12:43 am

The train journey would already take forever from there to Melbourne without the indirectness of the end of the line, which would make it something like a horrid 85 minute journey. Not appealing to anybody.
User avatar
BroadGauge
 
Posts: 3468
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:20 pm
Location: North of Mexico
Has thanked: 178 times
Been thanked: 197 times
Favourite Vehicle: Car

Re: mornington rail

Postby krustyklo » Mon May 09, 2016 7:55 pm

The train journey would already take forever from there to Melbourne without the indirectness of the end of the line, which would make it something like a horrid 85 minute journey.

To be fair, I suspect many journeys would only be as far as Frankston given it is a fairly large activity centre in its own right. I suspect other places along the line may well be destinations too, such as Southland when the station is complete. The other answer is to run express services such as Mornington stopping all stations to Frankston (or somewhere else, maybe someone who lives down that way could suggest an optimum place to stop all stations to), then run express only stopping at major stations.

Either way, it would be interesting to hear from those down that way whether a 20-25 minute journey along roads with bus priority would be a better / worse / neutral option compared to spending significant sums of money on reinstating a branch to Mornington with a probable 25 minute journey. And "people don't like buses" isn't really an answer, I am sure people prefer the 3 to 5 Mornington to Frankston buses every hour compared to the Stony Point train every 100 minutes.

If the line was to go past Baxter I don't know which would be better out of Mornington or Somerville, if either. I suspect in reality that Baxter would be the end of the line for the foreseeable future, with a bus connection to Mornington and Stony Point railcar on the other branch.
User avatar
krustyklo
 
Posts: 2647
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Bundoora, VIC
Has thanked: 183 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby MCI9 » Wed May 11, 2016 1:17 pm

the bus timetables are not realistic now unless driver is over the limit used to be 10min to mt eliza 15min mton'from mte now most times now 15 to 20 fn to mte 20mte mton train would be viable with buses feeding eases parking at fn station also would cover Langwarrin ,baxter Pearcedale(bus conn) to hard back to sleep dano
MCI9
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby Craig » Wed May 11, 2016 2:49 pm

Rather than pissing money up the wall on reopening the line to Mornington, I'd suggest a more sensible solution would be to run express buses from Frankston to Mornington (at least at peak times), which would then continue as local routes to Mornington East and Mt Martha (& Dromana). This would cut up to 10 mins from the trip to Frankston, saving the detours through Mt Eliza and Tanti Park for a local "all stops" bus between Mornington and Frankston.

The express buses would depart Frankston every 10-12 mins in peak times (timed to meet each express train during the peaks) and then split off to provide a half-hourly service on each of the 781, 784 and 785.

781 would be extended south at least as far Safety Beach, 785 would continue down Nepean Hwy, Bruce Rd & Dromana Pde to Dromana and 784 would become the sole route for Mornington East.

Communities on the southern peninsula would enjoy express buses from Frankston to Dromana traveling out via Frankston Hospital and Monash Uni before using Peninsula Link to reach Dromana. These would run every 30 mins (maybe more in the peaks) and be co-ordinated with the 785 at Dromana for those travelling to Mornington.

The $500m+ that it would cost to see trains return to Mornington on a frequent basis (especially if electrified) would be able to fund such an overhaul of the bus routes on the Peninsula for many many years with plenty of loose change for a proper cross-Peninsula bus to Hastings at least once an hour, not the token trials of the past.

Kind Regards


Craig :-)
User avatar
Craig
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:26 pm
Location: Edithvale, VIC
Has thanked: 1243 times
Been thanked: 459 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby krustyklo » Wed May 11, 2016 4:16 pm

the bus timetables are not realistic now unless driver is over the limit used to be 10min to mt eliza 15min mton'from mte now most times now 15 to 20 fn to mte 20mte mton train would be viable with buses feeding eases parking at fn station


Probably fair comment, most parts of Melbourne have the same problem with buses caught in traffic. Would bus priority be a better solution though? If an extra lane was built along Nepean Hwy, surely that would be cheaper than a railway line and serve those already using the bus? The only reason a train would be quicker is it has its own right of way. If you could do the same with the bus, wouldn't that achieve the same thing whilst helping those who don't live near the railway line (such as those living in Mt Eliza)?

I'd suggest a more sensible solution would be to run express buses from Frankston to Mornington (at least at peak times), which would then continue as local routes to Mornington East and Mt Martha (& Dromana). This would cut up to 10 mins from the trip to Frankston, saving the detours through Mt Eliza and Tanti Park for a local "all stops" bus between Mornington and Frankston.


The problem with that area is that growth has outstripped infrastructure, like most fringe areas of Melbourne. The telling part there is that the timetable adds 10 minutes above the quiet times, and MCI9 has pointed out that even those are unrealistic. Having driven down there on rare occasions, the Nepean Hwy crawls in peak hour. May have improved since Peninsula Link opened (maybe MCI9 can comment), but otherwise the express buses will crawl in the same traffic as the stopping buses that exist now. I very much doubt you'd save 10 minutes on the journey without a reason for the buses to have a clear run, hence my preference for bus priority. As an example, the 788 has pick up and set down restrictions (hence some of the way to your express bus), yet Twitter most mornings suggests it makes little difference to timekeeping.

I think we are at the stage where the government has to take seriously the idea of prioritising high capacity transport links over low capacity ones (single occupant vehicles on roads). A smart proactive government would get in early with better bus priority, which is cheaper to provide than fixed rail, otherwise we start getting demands of politicians for fixed rail links because they are the most obvious way of getting reliable travel times that aren't more roads. Indeed, the fact this is happening now (Mernda, Rowville, Doncaster, Airport, and this post suggesting Mornington) suggests people have finally realised that more and wider roads are not the best answer. The problem is that fixed rail is not always the best answer either. It is expensive, disruptive to build, and needs to serve areas of reasonable density. That doesn't mean lots of apartments, but places with clusters of housing, housing on large blocks, or lots of parkland or empty space probably lower the chances of success. Somewhere like Mernda is probably justified given the poor road access, lots of houses on smallish blocks, and existing land reservation which will help reduce the cost of building the line. Rowville is probably justifiable based on Monash University being on the route, although road access in that area is good and the cost of retrofitting a railway would be high. Doncaster would be better served by fixing the gaps in the bus lane between Doncaster and the city. The airport would probably be better fixed in the present time by Skybus having its own lane (shared with taxis if need be to make it more politically palatable - could also be a good weapon to keep taxi drivers, operators and owners on side in the current fight over Uber by giving them an advantage to their favourite money making destination), with a railway line in the medium term.
User avatar
krustyklo
 
Posts: 2647
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Bundoora, VIC
Has thanked: 183 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby Craig » Wed May 11, 2016 6:34 pm

By cutting out up to 15 stops from Mornington to Frankston by running express, you'd hope to save at least 5 mins. Another 5 mins should be saved by not detouring along residential streets in Tanti Park and Mt Eliza and the associated time taken for turns on & off Nepean Hwy.

While I confess to having minimal knowledge of Nepean Hwy south of Frankston in peak times myself, but I wouldn't have termed it a crawl. Google Maps does not suggest that the trip is overly slower northbound in the AM peak than at other times - at worse it shows some mild congestion just north of Mornington at school drop-off time.

Image
Image
Image

Kind Regards


Craig :-)
User avatar
Craig
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:26 pm
Location: Edithvale, VIC
Has thanked: 1243 times
Been thanked: 459 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby Leyland B21 » Wed May 11, 2016 9:07 pm

I like Craig's suggestion of extending the 785 down to Bruce Road to Safety Beach. You could then run the 788 which already has crush loads express from Dromana to Frankston via the Mooroduc Hwy. You could have 1 bus deviate to Padua College if need be. Observing twitters Ventura threads. There are serious overcrowding issues on Route 788 most of the time on weekdays. I personally believe the area between Dromana and Frankston needs a complete overhaul regardless.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
You can take the boy out of Armadale W.A but you cant take Armadale out of the boy!!!
User avatar
Leyland B21
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:12 pm
Location: Narre Warren!!!
Has thanked: 244 times
Been thanked: 75 times
Favourite Vehicle: Former Perth B21 /#32

Re: mornington rail

Postby MCI9 » Thu May 12, 2016 8:32 pm

those long scanias {788} by the way{ met bus zone finish at mt Martha} no p/up from mton on way to fn they use have not got capacity, d/decks carry more
MCI9
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Mornington Train Needed

Postby MCI9 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:32 pm

the mornington area needs that sparki to extend to mornington the area warrants it mornington is growing fast west of melb seems to get the projects last election pollies local type said it was on their ajenda but we might be mirrors looking into it what a success it would be :lol:
MCI9
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby 1whoknows » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:48 pm

A,dopey Dan government will always favour the west.
Cats are best.
User avatar
1whoknows
 
Posts: 3484
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:55 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 246 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby E.L.Wood » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:10 pm

There would also be the need to make rail/road overpass/underpasses at at least Moorooduc Road with the line not being able to access Mornington itself, having to finish short of the Nepean Highway, with very little space for stabling facilites, parking etc.
yolo seems to be a bit of a trend!
User avatar
E.L.Wood
 
Posts: 1036
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:06 pm
Location: sitting at the Computer sometimes
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 59 times
Favourite Vehicle: PMC Adelaide bodied Elwood

Re: mornington rail

Postby jarf » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:45 am

Craig wrote:While I confess to having minimal knowledge of Nepean Hwy south of Frankston in peak times myself, but I wouldn't have termed it a crawl. Google Maps does not suggest that the trip is overly slower northbound in the AM peak than at other times - at worse it shows some mild congestion just north of Mornington at school drop-off time.

Google's assessment is totally accurate. Having done the trip in both directions many many times at different times of the day, I've never had it take much more than 20 minutes.

The really annoying spots are the intersection at Bungower Road, where it can sometimes take a couple of light sequences to pass through, and the obvious congestion in Frankston itself.

Nothing that some improved light sequencing and maybe a few short bus lanes wouldn't be able to fix.
Random Gunzel Insanity - http://jarfness.blogspot.com/
User avatar
jarf
 
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:24 pm
Location: Stab Albans
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 106 times
Favourite Vehicle: Scania L94UA/Volgren CR228L

Re: mornington rail

Postby MCI9 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:37 am

if buses feed the mornington station,baxter station Langwarrin station this would work and help eliminate the the low life situation at frankston 781,785,788,784 Mornington station 766baxter 770,790 Langwarrin And cut parking probs at frankston most inferstructure is there major groth areas
MCI9
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby MCI9 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:39 am

sorry sbe776 Pearcedale service
MCI9
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby Heihachi_73 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:43 pm

If we're going to piss money up against the wall, why does the Mornington extension have to be via Baxter? A brand new line could pretty much follow the Nepean Highway direction and put the buses to good use elsewhere while the trains are no worse than every 20 minutes as is the case at Frankston (if they are every 40 minutes, people will complain even if 3 out of 4 trains are empty - miss a 40-minute train and it will be far quicker to drive). If the line was straight enough, it could be made 115 km/h, only needing an intermediate stop at Mt. Eliza.
User avatar
Heihachi_73
 
Posts: 459
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:48 pm
Location: Ringwood
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby krustyklo » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:42 pm

If we're going to piss money up against the wall, why does the Mornington extension have to be via Baxter? A brand new line could pretty much follow the Nepean Highway direction and put the buses to good use elsewhere while the trains are no worse than every 20 minutes as is the case at Frankston (if they are every 40 minutes, people will complain even if 3 out of 4 trains are empty - miss a 40-minute train and it will be far quicker to drive). If the line was straight enough, it could be made 115 km/h, only needing an intermediate stop at Mt. Eliza.


Because that would really piss money up against a wall. There is no alignment, hence houses would need to be bought back or a tunnel dug. I suspect there may be issues with gradients in places if it follows the highway too closely thus requiring cuttings or banks / "Skyrail".

In addition, given the priority given to road solutions in that area with the opening of the Peninsula Link, I suspect there wouldn't be a high need if the traffic has improved since the opening as has been suggested above.

On the other hand, the original suggestion of following the original line is relatively cheap as the alignment already exists and is being maintained to varying standards along its length. Frankston to Baxter is obviously still in use as part of the Stony Point line, and Baxter to Mornington is in use as the tourist railway who presumably leases the line on condition that they would move on if the line was required again for public transport purposes.

If we're going to get snarky about pissing money up against a wall, I would be more interested in a new line from Baxter down the Peninsula as far as say Rosebud or Rye. An obvious route would be to go a short distance down the Mornington branch to the freeway, then follow the freeway alignment. The upside is it would be cheap as the alignment exists and you could build down the middle of the freeway without much difficulty. The downside is it is a decent walk to the main shopping strip for most places it would serve (between 1.5 and 2km according to a quick measurement in Google Maps, so 20 to 30 minute walk), hence would need either connector buses to the activity centres along the Nepean Hwy, or an acceptance that it is effectively a park and ride railway.
User avatar
krustyklo
 
Posts: 2647
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Bundoora, VIC
Has thanked: 183 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby Roderick Smith » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:41 pm

Bring back zone 2 and zone 3, and establish zone 4 (which would then go to Portsea).
The direct railway alignment Frankston - Mornington was sold off years ago by a classically shortsighted government (the flavour doesn't matter; they are equally hopeless).
Strategy always has been to electrify to greenfields stabling sidings at Langwarrin or Baxter.
Smithplan is to convert from the electrified terminus to Long Island, Stony Point and the future Hastings deepwater port to sg, with dg from Melbourne SC to that terminus.
I don't know where the best place is for train to bus interchange for Mornington and beyond, but PTV is incapable of designing a proper interchange, and no consultant has the ability either.
The current interchange at Frankston is one of the better ones: no up across and down, but a long hike.

Roderick.
Roderick Smith
 
Posts: 1322
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 8:44 pm
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 194 times

Re: mornington rail

Postby MCI9 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:50 am

frankston is in a big shamozzle up grade ? I forget how many times now 6????will it get finished ? buses in beach st what a mess one upgrade was trains underneath buses above taxis on top like roma st bne we should run a book
MCI9
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 4 times



  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Melbourne / VIC

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests