Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

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tranzitjim
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by tranzitjim »

The big rumor as expressed in Facebook this week is, #86 may be diverted to Port Melbourne, just once Preston gets all of their E class trams.
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

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Please provide link - without a link such future posts may not be approved.
Living in the Shire.
Roderick Smith
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by Roderick Smith »

There is considerable speculation about what hasn't been said.
Toorak Rd replacing Park St is announced.
Extra track in Park St to connect to Clarendon St has been mooted, but not detailed. That would require an extra double curve too.
That seems to be a corollary of diverting the thinned Swanston St service via a reinstated curve into Flinders St, and a new one into Elizabeth St, overloading that street.
There has been no statement about how they get back. Reinstating the south to east curve at La Trobe St is a prospect, but will the west to north also be affected by tunnel construction?
Toorak to West Coburg is hardly overloading William St: scope for another to be diverted? Route 557?
I guess that anything heading to Clarendon St will continue along Spencer St to La Trobe St.
This is all speculation.
I feel that PTV has gone for unnecessary construction disruption in order to maximise its own convenience.

Roderick
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by RailwayBus »

In addition to the merger of routes 55 and 8, the following points are included in the tram plan for the Metro Tunnel project:
1. Extension of 19, 57 and 59 trams via Flinders Street to Jolimont and Melbourne Park.
2. Diversion of 5 and 64 trams via Park St, Clarendon St and Spencer St to a new terminus in the north-western part of the CBD.
3. Simplification of operations through the Collins and Spencer intersection. Presumably this means no turning movements.
All views expressed are strictly my own and do not represent my employer or anyone else.
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by jamesadams7 »

The map below (from a Yarra Trams presentation in 2012) explains a bit in terms of their plans, but the proposal to continue Elizabeth St routes on Flinders St is new, and seems a bit unnecessary.

In terms of removing turning movements at Collins/Spencer, 12 is meant to run via Spencer, turning into La Trobe anyway. As for the 109, I don't see how that could work. Perhaps the Box Hill-City section is extended into Docklands and across the proposed new bridge into Fishermans Bend, while the Port Melbourne-City section would run down Bourke?
trams-proposed-routes.jpg
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tranzitjim
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by tranzitjim »

jamesadams7 wrote:The map below (from a Yarra Trams presentation in 2012) explains a bit in terms of their plans, but the proposal to continue Elizabeth St routes on Flinders St is new, and seems a bit unnecessary.

In terms of removing turning movements at Collins/Spencer, 12 is meant to run via Spencer, turning into La Trobe anyway. As for the 109, I don't see how that could work. Perhaps the Box Hill-City section is extended into Docklands and across the proposed new bridge into Fishermans Bend, while the Port Melbourne-City section would run down Bourke?
trams-proposed-routes.jpg
What will happen is, #109 shall be split at Spencer/Collins street.

Most likely #42, will replace the Box Hill section, and terminate at Victoria Harbour along with #12 and #48.

The other portion may retain the #109, or get a new number, and run via Bourke Street, then follow #86 as far as Clifton Hill. It will provide additional service to the inner portion of #86, just like #12 does to #109 at the moment.

At least that is what I do hear.
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Heihachi_73
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by Heihachi_73 »

I'm wondering if it will mean the 109 will become route 42 once again, if it's no longer going to Port Melbourne via the light rail. The 109 is the light rail part of the route.

Edit: Didn't even notice the post immediately above mine. :lol:
Last edited by Heihachi_73 on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
gobillino
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by gobillino »

jamesadams7 wrote:The map below (from a Yarra Trams presentation in 2012)
In terms of removing turning movements at Collins/Spencer, 12 is meant to run via Spencer, turning into La Trobe anyway. As for the 109, I don't see how that could work. Perhaps the Box Hill-City section is extended into Docklands and across the proposed new bridge into Fishermans Bend, while the Port Melbourne-City section would run down Bourke?
trams-proposed-routes.jpg
This would make a huge amount of sense! Conflicting turning movements in the CBD between different routes are a huge source of unnecessary delay. We've removed the conflict at Clarendon/Port Junction and St Kilda Road/Southbank Blvd over the past few years through additional track, but there is next to no opportunity to do that in the Hoddle Grid itself. Having all Bourke St services run Port Junction-Gertrude, all Collins services running Victoria Harbour to St Vincents Place, and all Flinders St services running Batman-Harbour Esp would be a huge improvement.

That would leave three conflict points - Victoria/Elizabeth, Latrobe/Spencer and Flinders/Batman, all of which you could live with for the medium term, or at least significantly rework signals so it's barely a problem. Gertrude/Nicholson is another you'd want to address in due course, but would require acquisition for additional track space from Carlton Gardens - likely to be controversial.

This is why i don't understand the Elizabeth-Flinders connection proposed as part of Melbourne Metro. For mine its creating a problem where none currently exist!
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by jamesadams7 »

gobillino wrote:This is why i don't understand the Elizabeth-Flinders connection proposed as part of Melbourne Metro. For mine its creating a problem where none currently exist!
The problem is the lack of capacity on the terminating tracks. But as you've said, creating more turning movements will probably just create even more delays.
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by gobillino »

ah ok. Gotcha. Thanks for that James. Well that makes sense. Lets just hope that it genuinely only is temporary then.
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by Roderick Smith »

The problem is having no tracks in Swanston St. The useless PTV and useless tunnel people can't build a station without removing them, despite the fact that the tunnel has to be below river level already. Today's engineers simply can't cope, and want to maximise their own convenience.

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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

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Roderick Smith wrote:The problem is having no tracks in Swanston St. The useless PTV and useless tunnel people can't build a station without removing them, despite the fact that the tunnel has to be below river level already. Today's engineers simply can't cope, and want to maximise their own convenience.

Roderick
But Swanston St isn't being closed?
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crakening
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by crakening »

I think the argument is that given the tunnel is going to be bored well below street level (vs the cut and cover originally proposed), why does Swanston St need to be closed at all? I guess the stations themselves (especially if they're sitting right beneath street level) and associated works - in the end it's probably just cheaper.
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by RailwayBus »

But aren't they excavating the stations out from under the street, from acquired pieces of land beside the street (such as City Square, or the north west corners of Swanston and Flinders, and Swanston and La Trobe), without closing the street?
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by jamesadams7 »

They aren't closing Swanston Street at all. Trams will continue running down the corridor throughout the works. See the first FAQ under 'Route alignment': http://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/about-the-project/faq
Under our proposed construction solution proposed, the two CBD stations will be excavated under the roadway. This means the trams will continue to run through the heart of the city along Swanston Street during construction, many major utility relocations will be avoided and the surface disruption to many businesses and CBD visitors will be greatly reduced.
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by gobillino »

So the extension is more generally to deal with terminating capacity for the three routes currently using Elizabeth? (ie, it will be permanent)? I always understood that it was required in association with Melb Metro?
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by RailwayBus »

It provides extra trams from Flinders Street station to the eastern end of the CBD to go some way towards making up for the loss of a direct train journey to that end of the CBD.
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by gobillino »

Do you mean Jolimont or Parliament? I'm not sure how flinders to parliament is underserved by direct train connection. Jolimont may have a better argument, since single direction operation of that loop, but surely doesn't justify running three routes in addition to 70 (maybe a few short stops as for MCG events at most
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by RailwayBus »

gobillino wrote:Do you mean Jolimont or Parliament? I'm not sure how flinders to parliament is underserved by direct train connection.
I'm referring to the current direct train journeys from the Cranbourne, Pakenham and Sunbury lines to the eastern end of the CBD at Parliament station, which will require a change to a second train or to a tram at Flinders Street once the metro tunnel opens.
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by Craig »

RailwayBus wrote:
gobillino wrote:Do you mean Jolimont or Parliament? I'm not sure how flinders to parliament is underserved by direct train connection.
I'm referring to the current direct train journeys from the Cranbourne, Pakenham and Sunbury lines to the eastern end of the CBD at Parliament station, which will require a change to a second train or to a tram at Flinders Street once the metro tunnel opens.
I would have thought people from Cranbourne and Pakenham will generally change to the Frankston train at Caulfield to get to Parliament (which reverts back to a City loop service)

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Craig :-)
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by RailwayBus »

Craig wrote:
RailwayBus wrote:
I'm referring to the current direct train journeys from the Cranbourne, Pakenham and Sunbury lines to the eastern end of the CBD at Parliament station, which will require a change to a second train or to a tram at Flinders Street once the metro tunnel opens.
I would have thought people from Cranbourne and Pakenham will generally change to the Frankston train at Caulfield to get to Parliament (which reverts back to a City loop service)

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Craig :-)
They can. There's nothing stopping them. But that doesn't help Sunbury line people :P
It's just one reason of many to get rid of a city tram dead end and improve the service the tram network provides as a whole, but certainly not the only reason. Another one is it provides extra trams for sporting events, etc.
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by Craig »

Start date of new 58 West Coburg - Toorak and associated extension of Route 6 to Moreland now announced, as 1 May.

Of course, without any platform stops on William St, you'll have to use the Casino East stop to access the CBD in a wheelchair...

The media release is a little unclear, D1s from Malvern Depot will be used on the route.

Route 58 will continue to use Domain Rd initially, the new alignment along Toorak Rd West won't be ready until mid year.
Victorian Government wrote: First Low-Floor Trams For Melbourne’s Hospital Precinct

Minister for Public Transport

28 March 2017

Transport
Media Release

Low-floor trams will soon service Melbourne’s major hospitals in Parkville, making it easier for staff, patients and parents with kids to get to work, or visit the ones they love.

Minister for Public Transport Jacinta Allan announced today that from 1 May, accessible trams will run along Flemington Road and through Royal Park – past the Royal Melbourne Hospital, Royal Children’s Hospital, Royal Women’s Hospital and Peter MacCallum Cancer Centre.

Up to 10 low-floor trams will operate in the peak, providing frequent, reliable tram services for people in wheelchairs or scooters, and parents with prams.

The changes are part of a new timetable, which includes the combination of routes 8 and 55 into Route 58, which will run from Toorak through South Yarra to Domain, and then along William Street to Parkville and West Coburg.

At the same time, Route 6 from Glen Iris will be extended from Melbourne University to Moreland, to replace Route 8 services on Lygon Street.


These changes will deliver more trams to Prahran, Malvern and Glen Iris, while ensuring there is no reduction in services to Brunswick and Coburg.

They will also relieve pressure on the busiest tram corridor in the world by diverting Route 8 off Swanston Street and down Kings Way to the west of the city, where extra trams are most needed.

There are now more low-floor trams on the network than ever before, and just last week the Andrews Labor Government recently unveiled the first of its 20 new E-Class trams.

E-Class trams are the biggest and most accessible on the network. There are almost 50 of these trams now in service, and every single one of them has been ordered by Labor Governments.

There will be further changes to tram services in the middle of the year, when work on the Metro Tunnel forces the diversion of Route 58 trams from Domain Road along Toorak Road West.

The diversion will ensure services from Toorak can continue to turn right onto St Kilda Road while the brand new underground station is built – delivering high-frequency trains directly to the Domain employment precinct, Shrine of Remembrance and Botanic Gardens for the first time.

Journey times on all routes have been adjusted in the new timetable, to better reflect traffic conditions. More information and a copy of the new timetable will be available at ptv.vic.gov.au from 3 April.

Quotes attributable to Minister for Public Transport Jacinta Allan

“Delivering low-floor trams to these hospitals will make it easier for people to get the care they need, enjoy a day out or visit the ones they love.”

“It’s part of a broader change that will increase services and reduce crowding while we get on with the Metro Tunnel – which will create space for more trains, more often to the city and the suburbs.”

“We’re improving services and building a better public transport network to get people home safer and sooner.”
Kind Regards


Craig :-)
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Re: Low-floor trams for new route 58.

Post by Roderick Smith »

28 March 2017 Transport Media Release [fluff removed].
Low-floor trams will soon service Melbourne’s major hospitals in Parkville.
Minister for Public Transport Allan announced today that, from 1 May, accessible trams will run along Flemington Road and through Royal Park – past Royal Melbourne Hospital, Royal Children’s Hospital, Royal Women’s Hospital and Peter MacCallum Cancer Centre.
Up to ten low-floor trams will operate in the peak, providing frequent, reliable tram services for people in wheelchairs or scooters, and parents with prams.
The changes are part of a new timetable, which includes the combination of routes 8 and 55 into Route 58, which will run from Toorak through South Yarra to Domain, and then along William Street to Parkville and West Coburg.
At the same time, Route 6 from Glen Iris will be extended from Melbourne University to Moreland, to replace Route 8 services in Lygon Street.
These changes will deliver more trams to Prahran, Malvern and Glen Iris, while ensuring there is no reduction in services to Brunswick and Coburg.
They will also relieve pressure in Swanston St, by diverting Route 8 to Kings Way to the west of the city, where extra trams are most needed [spin warning].
There are now more low-floor trams on the network; last week the first of 20 new E-class trams was unveiled [but not yet in traffic].
E-class trams are the biggest and most accessible on the network. There are almost 50 of these in service.
There will be further changes to tram services in the middle of the year, when work on the Swanston St tunnel forces the diversion of route 58 trams from Domain Road along Toorak Road West.
The diversion will ensure services from Toorak can continue to turn right onto St Kilda Road while the brand new underground station is built – delivering high-frequency trains directly to the Domain employment precinct, Shrine of Remembrance and Botanic Gardens for the first time.
Journey times on all routes have been adjusted in the new timetable, to better reflect traffic conditions. More information and a copy of the new timetable will be available at ptv.vic.gov.au from 3 April.
<www.premier.vic.gov.au/first-low-floor- ... l-precinct>
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Re: Part low-floor route 58

Post by Roderick Smith »

Roderick.
May 1 2017 Government not on the level about route 58 tram access, disability group says .
Brian Caccianiga is sitting in his wheelchair on the corner of William and Latrobe streets in the CBD and he's fuming.
He has just emerged from the underground platforms of Flagstaff railway station, on his way to the Royal Melbourne Hospital just 1½ kilometres north of here.
Melbourne's new tram route misleads disabled passengers
The Andrews government said in March that the new route 58 would provide reliable tram services for people in wheelchairs or scooters, and parents with prams. We put that claim to the test.
He wanted to complete his journey by tram, having been told by the state government that wheelchair-friendly low-floor trams would begin to service Parkville's hospital precinct for the very first time from today, May 1.
The hospital precinct on Flemington Road has had platform tram stops for years now, but had never been serviced by low-floor trams until tram route 58 was introduced today.
Brian Caccianiga cannot catch any of the low-floor trams that were introduced to William Street on May 1. Photo: Jason South
The Andrews government said in March that route 58 would provide reliable tram services for people in wheelchairs or scooters, and parents with prams.
"Delivering low-floor trams to these hospitals will make it easier for people to get the care they need, enjoy a day out or visit the ones they love," Public Transport Minister Jacinta Allan said.
But there is a catch that isn't mentioned in the statement, and it's a big one.
graph
Getting on a route 58 low-floor tram anywhere in the CBD is impossible, because the route follows William Street, which is one of the few remaining city tram corridors that has no platform stops.
So, having come to Flagstaff because it is the only CBD railway station that intersects with route 58, Mr Caccianiga cannot catch a tram to the hospital.
"We were given information that was misleading," he says of the government's March announcement.
The nearest platform tram stops from here on route 58 are more than one kilometre away in either direction, north at Queen Victoria Market or south at Queensbridge Street in Southbank.
Mr Caccianiga could take the long trip by motorised scooter to one of these stops, and risk draining his battery, or abandon route 58 altogether and head two blocks east to Elizabeth Street, where there are platform stops and he can catch a tram to within a few hundred metres of the hospital.
He does so, travelling by train from Flagstaff to Melbourne Central, and this convoluted trip from Flinders Street Station to the hospital takes an hour and 15 minutes.
"If I'd had an appointment and I'd planned my journey based on the government's spin I would've missed it," he says.
Disability advocates say route 58 and its low-floor trams for the hospital stops are welcome and "long overdue".
But much of the route remains inaccessible, advocacy group All Aboard says.
"An accessible journey can be likened to a chain. It is only as strong as its weakest link," the group said.
"Resources are wasted if people with mobility issues can't get on the tram somewhere reasonably convenient, just as any able-bodied Melburnian can."
Melbourne has 1761 tram stops, about 400 of which are level access.
Under the federal Disability Discrimination Act, Melbourne's tram network is meant to be 90 per cent accessible by the end of this year, a target it will not meet.
There is no date for when platform stops will be built on William Street, although the government said it had begun to plan for them.
"Introducing low-floor trams to the new Route 58 is a significant step towards creating a more accessible tram network, and this is just the beginning," Ms Allan said.
Mr Caccianiga said he accepted upgrading the tram network to meet the needs of disabled travellers was a major undertaking, but he wanted to see more urgency and less spin.
Many people with a disability have come to consider it to be normal to have to go the long way round to access public transport, or enter a building from a back alley," All Aboard said. "But this should not be normal."
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/gover ... vwnnd.html
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Re: Changes down the line for Melbourne's tram routes

Post by 712M »

D-class trams are fitted with fold-out ramps. Why are these not being used at non-accessible stops?
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