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New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby swtt » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:39 pm

OK - I started the one on the SMNW, time to get one going on CSELR - whilst the L3's opening is still a while away (Mar 2020?) and the government is holding off on bus changes until then.

The first question I have: the little bus lane on Rawson Square southbound (but on the northern side) where it provides "cross platform interchange" - will inner west buses terminating at "Railway Square" (effectively Barlow St), such as the 501/433 etc, be turning into Rawson Square to U-turn back out to George St, at least, is that how the design is meant to work?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby moa999 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:48 pm

Is it confirmed there will be an L3 Juniors Kingsford, or will it just be an L2 branch?

Not sure how the Haymarket bus stop will work, but I'd assumed (perhaps incorrectly) a Pitt-Rawson-George loop. May make sense to have a drop-off stop on Pitt St nr Rawson in the mornings so city-bound pax don't have to cross the tram lines.
Simple cross-platform transfer in the evening peak for the majority.

On the Eastern side of the route the Wiki page summarises what was set out in the EIS many years ago.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBD_and ... Light_Rail
Notable exception being the various peak X routes where it was expected they would continue, morning using ED, afternoon Oxford St.
But this could well have changed in the intervening period.

Per the STA thread, Allison Rd non-express buses will temporarily (at least until they are likely rerouted next year) use the Anzac Pde buslane from Sun 10 Nov, however they do not seem to be using the new Moore Park loop stop which would provide a (200m) transfer to LR and access to SCG and schools.

Appears the X services will also use the Busway as express in both directions (per TripView maps from Mon 11 Nov - a change for the evening).
Would make sense for these service to stop at the Moore Park loop to enable LR transfer for those heading to the more Westerly parts of the city.
Last edited by moa999 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby tonyp » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:47 am

Where is this bus loop? Is that the one around Tramway Oval? It's a big deviation when they could have a stop simply on the busway. I would have thought it logical to have the stop beside the tram stop and overbridge for interchange and connection to the schools.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby moa999 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:20 am

There is a brand new smaller loop just to the North of Tramway oval that is in a V shape. The former loop that went around the entirety of Tramway oval has been removed.

New loop has three very large bus stands marked A, B and C.

A few pictures I have on my phone during the construction from near the busway (visible in the bottom of both pictures) - can't see it on Google maps satellite.

This is I guess 200m north of the light rail stop. And the entrance to Tibby Cotter bridge is about 50m north of Stand B

ImageImage
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby mandonov » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:00 am

swtt wrote:The first question I have: the little bus lane on Rawson Square southbound (but on the northern side) where it provides "cross platform interchange" - will inner west buses terminating at "Railway Square" (effectively Barlow St), such as the 501/433 etc, be turning into Rawson Square to U-turn back out to George St, at least, is that how the design is meant to work?

Yeah so the idea is that in the AM people arrive at a stop on Pitt before Rawson to catch the light rail along George Street. Then in the PM alight the tram at Haymarket to a cross platform interchange to the bus home. I imagine what will happen is that routes will largely remain the same except instead of first picking up at Pitt opp Barlow they'll turn right into Rawson for the first stop at the interchange. Layovers still north of Hay.

Would any of the routes currently terminating short at Central be extended back into the city once north-south capacity is freed by cut routes?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby moa999 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:17 am

Found relevant images I'd taken from the EIS and posted previously in other threads.

ImageImage
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:47 am

Thanks for digging that up again.
It obviously will need quite a review as there have been a number of route changes since that was written such as 410 now being a totally different route amongst others.
But it certainly shows the principles which were intended to be followed at the time.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby swtt » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:48 am

M50 not proposed to operate in the Eastern Suburbs - trouble is that Cleveland St will thus receive a major cut to services. This will be one of the most interesting cuts.

M10 can simply all be renumbered to 440 for that matter and in fact send it straight to BJI. It duplicates the 440 for much of the route.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:57 am

moa999 wrote:Is it confirmed there will be an L3 Juniors Kingsford, or will it just be an L2 branch?


See https://web.archive.org/web/20170315001 ... -names.jpg
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby boronia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:05 pm

L3 has been noticed on test trams already.

I have noticed comments recently about the trams "confusing" people because they are showing destinations. I guess the bunting around platforms and the huge DO NOT BOARD signs in the tram doors are a bit hard to comprehend?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:24 pm

The CBD AND SOUTH EAST LIGHT RAIL PROJECT ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT NOVEMBER 2013 document https://web.archive.org/web/20190401092 ... lume_2.pdf shows a more detailed plan for route changes as copied into this Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... completion and a copy of which is shown here
Screenshot 2019-11-10 14.13.49.png

Being six years old I suspect there will be some changes to this.
I have heard rumours that at least some of school specials to Sydney Boys and Sydney Girls will be retained.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby moa999 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:39 pm

For a tourist on their first day in Sydney it might be confusing.
The PIDs spend 80% of their time showing what looks like a schedule, and the Under Test message only briefly flashes up.

There is no fixed signage stating under test.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby J_Busworth » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:05 pm

There has been a significant amount of change to the bus network since the EIS in 2013, and as such I would expect the final bus network to look nothing like what the proposal in the EIS did.

I would obviously expect a route down Cleveland Street, as that corridor still needs a relatively frequent service (suggested as the 372 in the EIS). I would also expect a continuation of service between both Randwick and Kingsford and Taylor Square/Oxford Street, given that is a massive patronage generator which is at least 15 minutes walk from the nearest tram stop (suggested as the 374 and L94 in EIS).

Some routes which have no obvious connection point to the light rail (339, 343, 374, etc) I honestly wouldn't expect much change for, it at all. For your current high frequency corridor serving routes (373, L94, etc), I would expect truncation back to the light rail interchanges.

I would also expect to see quite high frequency services connecting the surrounding areas to the light rail interchanges. Everyone who lives in the catchment zone for the light rail should be within short walking distance (800m?) to a high frequency (15 min or better) feeder bus service. Anything less would be unacceptable. The experience in the Hills area, however, doesn't give me much hope.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby hornetfig » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:23 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:I have heard rumours that at least some of school specials to Sydney Boys and Sydney Girls will be retained.


TfNSW are intending a Chalmers St-Moore Park shuttle for the schools' purposes with one coupled set, but that gives 2 x AM services 25 minutes apart which is probably insufficient capacity and in the PM can't work. So, yeah, I would imagine some school services will continue.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby boronia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:51 pm

Once the L3 is operating, there will be a 4 minute frequency past the school in the afternoon. The extra AM services will relieve competition with UNSW students, but this would be less of a problem in the afternoon when one special set should be adequate.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby boronia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:06 pm

J_Busworth wrote:
I would obviously expect a route down Cleveland Street, as that corridor still needs a relatively frequent service (suggested as the 372 in the EIS).


Parts of Cleveland St would be covered by the 304 along Baptist/Crown and services along Chalmers/Elizabeth Sts for direct city access. The 352 and 355 provide a lengthwise link along Cleveland.

Fitzroy/Foveaux look set to lose services, but again City services will be available on Crown.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby marcnut1996 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:55 am

Fleet Lists wrote:
moa999 wrote:Is it confirmed there will be an L3 Juniors Kingsford, or will it just be an L2 branch?


See https://web.archive.org/web/20170315001 ... -names.jpg

This is the home page of the Light Rail: https://sydneylightrail.transport.nsw.gov.au/ and it also states L2 and L3. The information is reasonably updated as it states December 2019 and March 2020 opening dates for L2 and L3.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby matthewg » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:14 pm


This is the home page of the Light Rail: https://sydneylightrail.transport.nsw.gov.au/ and it also states L2 and L3. The information is reasonably updated as it states December 2019 and March 2020 opening dates for L2 and L3.[/quote]

Except someone has forgotten to tell the people programming the trams. I saw a tram at 'Kensignton Junction' turn out onto Anzac Pde last week bearing the destination of 'L2 Kingsford'.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby tonyp » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:27 am

hornetfig wrote:TfNSW are intending a Chalmers St-Moore Park shuttle for the schools' purposes with one coupled set, but that gives 2 x AM services 25 minutes apart which is probably insufficient capacity and in the PM can't work. So, yeah, I would imagine some school services will continue.

Bear in mind that the system is designed for 2 min headways to CQ and 4 mins to Randwick and Kingsford (traffic light cycles allowing). So there’s plenty of scope for them to introduce extra services between the runs in the initial timetable if they want to. There’s also some flexibility in that, for example they can run extra services between Central and Randwick/Kingsford in university peaks. They have to master the discipline of reversing trams at 2 min headways.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby lunchbox » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:01 am

There are still significant delays between traffic light phases at the intersections I have observed. Who do we chase to get the traffic lights fixed?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby boronia » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:39 am

I've seen one of them mention that traffic light priority will be looked at when real services start.

They've had 20 years to get the L1 line fixed.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby kypros1992 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:41 am

The Haymarket bus stop has given some hints of destinations mentioning Parramatta Rd to name a few. Looks like the stop outside the Barlow street may close with the routes being directed here. But no word if the routes still start from Martin Place or terminate at Haymarket
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby Linto63 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:00 pm

The pole at the bus stop on the northern side of Rawson Place lists Broadway, Glebe Point Rd, Parramatta Rd and Liverpool Rd as destinations although not King St or Victoria Rd so appears some, but not all, of the existing Railway Square terminators will use this stop.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby moa999 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:18 pm

hornetfig wrote:TfNSW are intending a Chalmers St-Moore Park shuttle for the schools' purposes with one coupled set,.


I'd imagine most kids will just catch the first service along with the UNSW students. That direction won't be that full.

Can't see a dedicated service lasting.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Postby boronia » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:10 pm

The kids have been well indoctrinated into using the SS buses from Central rather than regular services.

I'd guess they would be happy having SS trams.

Arrivals in the morning would be more random timewise, whereas there would be a concentration of numbers at the end of the school day, which would warrant a dedicated service.
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