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STA Observations 2019

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Swift » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:31 am

Sydney people would rather take twice as long than change modes.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby In Transit » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:23 am

In fact, if you look at passengers on the 333 today, and on the 378/440 before the spilt at BJI, you'll find the vast majority choose the faster option of transferring to the train. Sydney was late to this transfer opportunity given it was decades behind most other Australian cities in having a functioning multimodal ticketing system (and even there its still not all the way to nirvana).

However in reality politics - which after all drives most public transport decision making eventually - is not actually about numbers, logic or facts. It's about vocal small numbers of people who are good at getting attention, and opportunistic agenda setting by those who are looking for an issue, any issue, on which to have a fight for their team against the other team.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby J_Busworth » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:42 am

I think a lot of the people angry about the cut to the 378/440 an the ones who still continue citybound out of BJI on the 333 tend to be passengers headed towards Paddington, Taylor Square, Darlinghurst, Museum Station and surrounds. For commuters travelling to these areas it is actually quicker to change at BJI onto the 333 then the train. Google maps seems suggest walking to Clovelly Road from Bronte to get a 339 if travelling to the Downing Centre, Museum or Chinatown would provide a similar travel time to changing to another bus.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Nugget » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:07 am

Swift wrote:Sydney people would rather take twice as long than change modes.


Sydney people are very concerned with not getting a seat.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Swift » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:27 pm

Nugget wrote:
Swift wrote:Sydney people would rather take twice as long than change modes.


Sydney people are very concerned with not getting a seat.

Since the 1960s evidently, when they devised those very peculiar double deckers as the standard in a massive metropolis, no one else in the world uses for inner city mass transit duties. Sydney people have a very unique mind set.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Stonesourscotty » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:04 am

Rydes 2217 has lost all Metrobus branding but remains all red noticed it on the 545 on Friday it might have been repainted as looks cleaner than most Ryde buses.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Daniel » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:46 am

Not a repaint, just a detail clean, a buff and polish.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby aussieboy » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:06 am

citaro393 wrote:Will the Bronte to City service be different to the old 378? With the frequent 333 services along Oxford St between Bondi Jn and the City as well as M40 servicing stops not served by the 333 it seems pointless for the 378 to be reinstated as it was.


Because the Eastern Suburbs is built on long local corridors, along which there is significant demand for travel. For the 378 corridor, lots of people want to go between Darlo, Paddo, Woollahra, Waverley and Bronte. This is why the M40s/440s are so empty where 378s used to be very busy.

It's not about Bronte residents, it's really about the extremely busy bus corridor between St Catherine's Waverley and BJI not having a direct connection to Oxford St and the city.

I can understand promoting interchange, but for what are essentially local trips, it has made little sense to break the Bronte and Oxford St legs. It's especially painful because the 379 sets down inside the main interchange, from where passengers must use the completely overcrowded escalators and stairs to get to the M40/333 bus stop.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby In Transit » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:37 am

It makes complete sense when:
- both legs operate at a high frequency; interchange is not a great time imposition.
- retaining multiple routes overlapping one another both costs the taxpayer more to achieve the same transport outcomes and/or results in fewer services, to avoid inefficient duplication and waste of resources, which then reduces everyone's frequency and quality of service to satisfy the wants of what are, by far and away, the minority of passengers,
- when the 378/440 did operate through Bondi Junction, the vast bulk of passengers from east of Bondi Junction transferred there, rather than staying on the 378/440; hardly surprising really given the train is a lot quicker to the city, and a bus to Railway Square doesn't meet many city bound passengers needs.
- Sydney is finally catching up to most of the rest of the country by having a genuinely multimodal ticketing system. We aren't all the way there yet - interchange penalties between modes are a consequence of outsourcing transport policy advice to economists.

Sydney's buses will never reach their potential if efforts to consolidate multiple routes on busy corridors into fewer, high frequency high capacity high quality routes are overturned by naked politics harnessing (for pure political gain, not transport outcomes) every opportunistic complaint from a minority desire to have a single trip from everywhere to everywhere.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby boronia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:42 pm

aussieboy wrote:
citaro393 wrote:Will the Bronte to City service be different to the old 378? With the frequent 333 services along Oxford St between Bondi Jn and the City as well as M40 servicing stops not served by the 333 it seems pointless for the 378 to be reinstated as it was.


Because the Eastern Suburbs is built on long local corridors, along which there is significant demand for travel. For the 378 corridor, lots of people want to go between Darlo, Paddo, Woollahra, Waverley and Bronte. This is why the M40s/440s are so empty where 378s used to be very busy.



If the 440/m40s are now so empty, it would suggest there is not much demand for all stops travel in this section.

There are a lot of other old direct City routes that have been feeders into BJI for the last 40 years, and the passengers on these routes have coped with interchange without problems. I doubt that Bronte has a higher percentage of patronage that need direct Oxford St access.

I am reminded of the BBE proposals back in the early 2000s. They wanted some Anzac Pde services to divert via the ED and by-pass Taylor Square. The feedback was that it "would inconvenience elderly people wanting to get to St Vincents, etc". They also suggested rerouting the 339 through Taylor Square, but the locals there didn't want it. No elderly people living in Clovelly?; or just some paranoia about "change"?
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby burrumbus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:14 pm

In Transit wrote:It makes complete sense when:
- both legs operate at a high frequency; interchange is not a great time imposition.
- retaining multiple routes overlapping one another both costs the taxpayer more to achieve the same transport outcomes and/or results in fewer services, to avoid inefficient duplication and waste of resources, which then reduces everyone's frequency and quality of service to satisfy the wants of what are, by far and away, the minority of passengers,
- when the 378/440 did operate through Bondi Junction, the vast bulk of passengers from east of Bondi Junction transferred there, rather than staying on the 378/440; hardly surprising really given the train is a lot quicker to the city, and a bus to Railway Square doesn't meet many city bound passengers needs.
- Sydney is finally catching up to most of the rest of the country by having a genuinely multimodal ticketing system. We aren't all the way there yet - interchange penalties between modes are a consequence of outsourcing transport policy advice to economists.

Sydney's buses will never reach their potential if efforts to consolidate multiple routes on busy corridors into fewer, high frequency high capacity high quality routes are overturned by naked politics harnessing (for pure political gain, not transport outcomes) every opportunistic complaint from a minority desire to have a single trip from everywhere to everywhere.
T
The best example of the In Transit's last paragraph lies in the Newcastle bus system where the route structure was essentially unchanged for decades with the patronage progressively withering away year by year ,because the political implications of complaints by the minority of pax who wanted single seat trips from everywhere to everywhere was considered much more important than the transport needs of the majority in designing a system that reflected the demographic and land use changes in the area..
Made worse by the low population density in the Newcastle area.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby hornetfig » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:26 pm

aussieboy wrote:It's not about Bronte residents, it's really about the extremely busy bus corridor between St Catherine's Waverley and BJI not having a direct connection to Oxford St and the city.


Quick, better bring back the pre-ESR 379 and 381 too, so passengers between Waverley and Bondi Junction have direct access to Circular Quay and passengers on Bondi Rd have direct access to Railway Square. Heck, I think we definitely need the 360 back so my mum can get a single seat journey from Seven Ways Bondi to Central.

If only there was a marginal state electorate of Phillip still in existence, then the wildest bus route fantasies are just a Facebook campaign away.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Swift » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:42 pm

I think it's time for a private contractor to take the reigns.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby burrumbus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:06 pm

Private contractors operating it will most likely result in improved operation and efficiency of the services,but by and large the route structures are still designed by TFNSW-which unfortunately has political influence.The private operators do have some influence in service design but most is done by TFNSW.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby boronia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:58 pm

The main "efficiency" will come in the form of reduced running costs for the private operators and passed on to TfNSW

I doubt there will many improvements to the actual services, if other operating parameters don't change.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Swift » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:11 pm

burrumbus wrote:Private contractors operating it will most likely result in improved operation and efficiency of the services,but by and large the route structures are still designed by TFNSW-which unfortunately has political influence.The private operators do have some influence in service design but most is done by TFNSW.

It'd still punish those passengers with the long standing attitude that the local bus service is their taxi service. At least to some extent, as private contractors would be far more cost efficiency focused than the STA and something will have to give and that will be better use of available resources for all.
Private companies in the Sydney scene always had a more professional image where it matters, compared to the government buses.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby boronia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:50 pm

I ride in both TSA and STA services, and overall I'm scratching to tell the difference.

By a small margin, Ive noticed TSA drivers seem to avoid eye contact with boarding passengers more than STA drivers.

And I'd rate TSA driving skills lower than STA's. A greater percentage of lead-foots.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:55 pm

boronia wrote:I ride in both TSA and STA services, and overall I'm scratching to tell the difference.

By a small margin, Ive noticed TSA drivers seem to avoid eye contact with boarding passengers more than STA drivers.

And I'd rate TSA driving skills lower than STA's. A greater percentage of lead-foots.


TSA have presided over numerous driving scandals which have made the news + lead to disciplinary action, so there's definitely that. Plus they honk the horn too much and I wish they wouldn't - in modern Scania's (Bustech, Gemilang) , its an extremely loud earsplitting sound you can hear from even inside the bus its horrible
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby stajourneyman » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:27 pm

Not to mention TSA buses having apparently been involved in accidents resulting in five deaths since last May, whereas STA buses during the same time having been involved in none.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Swift » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:34 pm

I knew that bonus scheme for keeping on time was bound to end in disaster(s).
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby burrumbus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:06 pm

TSA certaintly have had to assemble their driving staff from a very wide area which would account for the variable driving skills,wheras the STA drivers were all trained by STA.I would imagine over time TSA will try to cull the worst drivers off the staff,much as the best privates of the past would allways try to concentrate on their best drivers on their best services.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby burrumbus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:12 pm

The current private operators are merely operators of contract services to the government since 2007.
The privates of the past were masters of their own businesses which had to make profits,purchase their own fleets,out of the take from their route services.Therefore standards were very important in attracting pax.
The current privates just do not have that imperitive to maintain standards and it shows all over Sydney
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:33 am

Swift wrote:I knew that bonus scheme for keeping on time was bound to end in disaster(s).


http://expressdigest.com/fears-a-5000-p ... ore-risks/
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Stonesourscotty » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:09 am

Port Botanys 2949 is on Lidcombe Olympic Park rail replacements this morning.
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Re: STA Observations 2019

Postby Swift » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:10 am

^Y not Y?
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