Sydney to Newcastle Faster Rail (Federal)

[mandonov]

From: http://www.theherald.com.au/story/52748 ... rail-plan/

TRAINS between Sydney and Newcastle are one of three routes forming part of a $20 million investigation into faster rail in Australia.

The state government won a place for the regularly demeaned route among three business cases to receive matching funding from the federal government to complete a business plan on whether upgrading the train line is worthwhile.

It joins a link between Brisbane and the regions of Moreton Bay and Sunshine Coast, plus a proposal corridor linking Melbourne to greater Shepparton, in those revealed on Friday to be progressing.

The NSW government proposal indicates it wants to make a number of changes including better segregation between passenger and freight services, removal of level crossings and realigning the track to make trips faster.

“The NSW government has indicated that travel times between Sydney and Newcastle could be reduced from approximately three hours to two hours,” the document states.

An estimated cost is listed to “be confirmed in coming weeks”. Comment has been sought from Transport Minister Andrew Constance’s office.

Documentation about the business case highlights the faster intercity link’s potential to “unlock housing supply and job growth” between the two cities as one of its main benefits.

The Department of Infrastructure, Regional Development and Cities said it would take between a year and 18 months to develop the business case, which will need to demonstrate how the upgrades would result in faster travel times.

“Completed business cases will be considered in the context of the government’s wider infrastructure priorities and future budgets, and any future funding commitments will take into account state and private sector financial support.”

The Property Council of Australia welcomed the inclusion of the Hunter’s link to the state capital.

“Both Newcastle and Sydney have growing populations and faster rail will mean people can move more easily between the two,” Property Council Hunter committee chair Neil Petherbridge said.

“A shorter travel time is critical to opening up housing and business opportunities for the Hunter region and means people who work in Sydney but live in Newcastle will face an easier commute.

“Faster rail will also make the Newcastle area more appealing for people to move to the region.

Mr Petherbridge said he was hopeful the business case would be a step towards a commitment from both tiers of government.

“We would like a solid commitment from both the federal and state governments to fund improvements to the Newcastle and Sydney rail line and add some hard and fast timeframes to this project,” Mr Petherbridge said.

“Our only concern is that the proposal currently is for a business case only.

“Once the business case outlines the well-known benefits from improvements to travel times, we hope long-term financial commitments will be on the table.

[mandonov]

This is one of three projects chosen by the Australian government as part of the Faster Rail Prospectus to move forward to business case development.

https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trai ... index.aspx

The other two projects are Melbourne to near Shepparton, and Brisbane to the Sunshine Coast. Those two proposals are by private consortia, whereas the Sydney to Newcastle project has been put forward by TfNSW itself.

NSW Government (Transport for NSW)

Proposal Corridor:
Sydney to Newcastle

Proposal Summary:
Provide time savings of approximately one hour through both minor and major service improvements on the existing rail corridor.

Details:
Fact Sheet PDF: https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trai ... W-Govt.pdf
Map PDF: https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trai ... SW-map.pdf

[mandonov]

snowboard99 on SSC pointed this out:

I have been digging back in the Future Transport Regional Infrastructure Plan (https://future.transport.nsw.gov.au/wp- ... e-Plan.pdf) and have found this on page 113:

Faster rail to Central Coast and Newcastle

• Transport for NSW has investigated infrastructure options to deliver significant journey time savings on key intercity rail corridors, including the Sydney to Newcastle rail corridor
• Seven deviations have been identified which when combined with the new rolling stock and an express travel pattern, will provide up to 40 minutes travel time saving between Broadmeadow and Central.

So it sounds like this is what the business case will be looking at - 7 deviations for a 40 minute saving to about 2 hours total. They have definitely been playing fast and loose with the truth in the announcement! As for why the feds even need to get involved when TfNSW could do it in house - presumably this is about the end game of actual federal infrastructure funding rather than the $20 million for the business case. Having the feds in at this stage gives them skin in the game I guess.

This was on the very next page, the map seems cut off but you can see the names of the deviations in the text at the bottom:


Based on the key in the diagram, the 7 deviations under consideration are all those that don't include the Hawkesbury.

[neilrex]

The big question will be, how much will the customers be prepared to pay for it ?

In most countries, a 100 km trip costs a lot more than a suburban trip. In Australia, or NSW anyway, that is currently not so.

[tonyp]

The big question will be, how much will the customers be prepared to pay for it ?

In most countries, a 100 km trip costs a lot more than a suburban trip. In Australia, or NSW anyway, that is currently not so.

Because these "interurban" areas are populated of their necessity by people who work in Sydney but can't afford to live there. If you price them out of long-distance commuting as well, where are you going to get the essential but lower-paid workers for Sydney? Also, one thing for sure if the cost of rail commuting goes up, they'll change (even more than already) to driving. It's a conscious policy decision to keep the long-distance commuting fares down because of the unique circumstances of the Sydney-Newcastle-Wollongong conurbation.

[Xplorer]

7 deviations just to shave off 40 mins... should try to make trains average 100km/h

[neilrex]

The big question will be, how much will the customers be prepared to pay for it ?

In most countries, a 100 km trip costs a lot more than a suburban trip. In Australia, or NSW anyway, that is currently not so.

Because these "interurban" areas are populated of their necessity by people who work in Sydney but can't afford to live there. If you price them out of long-distance commuting as well, where are you going to get the essential but lower-paid workers for Sydney? Also, one thing for sure if the cost of rail commuting goes up, they'll change (even more than already) to driving. It's a conscious policy decision to keep the long-distance commuting fares down because of the unique circumstances of the Sydney-Newcastle-Wollongong conurbation.

Maybe it depends on who you know, but for many people living on the central coast is a lifestyle choice.

A lot of central coast real estate is more expensive than places in the western suburbs,

If I lived at Rouse Hill, I'd certainly be concerned about the value-for-money of commuting by cattle-car for an hour while people from Tascott get faster and more luxurious trains and paying less per km than I do.

[tonyp]

From my observations of the south coast over the years the lifestylers are becoming numerically outweighed by commuters. There are a hell of a lot of people coming down here from Sydney. Sure the lifestyle is attractive but a lot of them are still going to work in Sydney or Wollongong. It's far from a holiday/retirement resort any longer, it's increasingly a commuting area. That's why you have commuter fares that are reasonably priced, because it's not the high income earners who are commuting. It's the ordinary wage-earners providing the work-face services in Sydney and Wollongong.

Except for a brief heavenly few years when there were V sets, there were always cattle cars down here - now compounded by long-distance (well, long travel time actually) standing. The Mercury has been surveying people for their longest standing journeys from Sydney. So far we've reached Unanderra - that's about 1 hour 40 minutes.

[Frosty]

Yes there maybe areas in Western Sydney that are cheaper than the Central Coast or South Coast but considering most of those cheap areas in Western Sydney have poor access to Public transport, high crime, not a great lifestyle and so on. Then it’s clear why people live in the Central Coast and South Coast with the longer commutes

[neilrex]

If people want to live 100 km from where they work, they should be paying for it.

It costs money to build and operate lines and trains, and it costs more to carry people 100 km than it does to carry them 10 km. All of Sydney trains run at a loss, but the loss is much greater on the central coast and south coast lines. It's a while since I saw the figures, and they were presented in a very dodgy way, IIRC. On some of Sydney trains lines, the fare revenue as a proportion of the cost is about 40%, while on other lines it is more like 15%.

People who drive from the central coast to Sydney, don't get cheaper petrol ""because they are workers". And they should still be paying off those tollways, too.

People who live in the western suburbs have to pay tolls to go to the beach on the weekend. People from the central and south coast don't.

In France or China or England or New York, living in a town 100km from the centre is going to cost you heaps in commuting fares, compared to living in a normal suburb. Living in the countryside like Jeremy Clarkson or the Hamptons or Westchester is going to cost you. But in NSW, it doesn't.

[neilrex]

Yes there maybe areas in Western Sydney that are cheaper than the Central Coast or South Coast but considering most of those cheap areas in Western Sydney have poor access to Public transport,

Actually, they don't, mostly. There are very few places more than a few km from the trains. And plenty of station parking. And limited stops trains which don't stop all stops to the CBD, something that people living in places like Waitara and Thornleigh and Liverpool don't get.

It would be annoying if you had no choice other than to rely on mediocre "feeder buses" to get to the station, but the reality is that most people don't.

If you look at satellite photos of Sydney, you can see the most of the fully built-up areas are still close to the train lines.

There is a lot of rather bizarre inverse snobbery involving attitudes to public transport in Australia, and also other places.

[tonyp]

Australian cities (you can't compare to anywhere else except mainly North America) have evolved poorly planned with huge urban sprawl. Most people don't actually *want* to live 80-100 km from where they work, they can't *afford* to live any closer. This is a huge problem particularly in Sydney as Australia's largest city. The problem has been festering away within the cities themselves for years - e.g. The bulk of ordinary workers in jobs in the eastern suburbs can't afford to live in the eastern suburbs because of property and rent prices (shortage of dwellings due to inefficient use of land), so they have to commute long distances from other parts of Sydney.

Now, because of the same residential supply shortage, increasing numbers can't even afford to live in Sydney at all, so they are being pushed out. Underwriting the fares for greater distances is in effect a social subsidy to compensate for the failure of urban planning. To then make long-distance commuting unaffordable as well invites all sorts of dire consequences for the city's economy.

And no, a lot of them can't afford to drive but some are forced to because the public transport is inadequate (the south coast line is over capacity). And ideally, governments need to offer a financial incentive to pull people out of cars to reduce the financial impacts of car use on government and taxpayers.

What's the saying about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing?