SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaster'

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
mandonov
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SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaster'

Post by mandonov »

May 25 2017 - 1:30PM

When Shelley Simonian began catching city-bound trains from Green Square six years ago she often waited with only a handful of other passengers on the platform.

Nowadays, passengers flood into the station on the Airport Line during the morning peak for trains that are often overflowing before they reach Green Square in Sydney's inner south.

"It's pretty chocker now, and that is before all these apartments [are built]. I am curious to know what it will look like after that," she said.

While underscoring the growing pressure on Sydney's train network, Green Square risks becoming a congestion choke zone for the entire city because of the extra tens of thousands of people who will call it home over the next decade.

The number of passengers passing through Green Square station on a week day is already estimated to have more than doubled in a year – from an average of 4810 in 2015 to 9766 last year. And that is before thousands of new apartments are built.

Mathew Hounsell, a researcher at the University of Technology's Institute for Sustainable Futures who did the modelling, said the surge in apartments around Green Square meant the only solution was high-capacity public transport such as light rail. "No transport expert believes that buses can service the demand," he said.

Transport Minister Andrew Constance freely admits Green Square is "public transport disaster" but blames the previous Labor governments for allowing a high concentration of apartments without plans for an "appropriate mass-transport solution".

The City of Sydney has pushed the state government to commit to a light rail line from the central city to Green Square, and has spent $40 million buying land to preserve a 4-kilometre corridor from Central Station.

The challenge for the "Green Square urban renewal area" – encompassing Waterloo, Zetland, and parts of Alexandria and Rosebery – is plain in forecasts of a near tripling of its population from 21,000 people to more than 61,000 within 12 years.

With 22,000 people packed into each square kilometre by 2030, it will easily become the most densely populated part of Australia.

At the moment, Pyrmont in inner Sydney holds the title with 14,000 people per sq km (the average across the city is 390 people).

Sydney Lord Mayor Clover Moore said residents in the precinct did not see public transport as a "looming disaster but one they experience every day".

"We had the foresight to acquire the corridor before land value and development made a light rail line near impossible, but the NSW government is responsible for Sydney's transport network – after years of lobbying them to build it, it's still not clear whether this essential project will go ahead," she said.

"The government is enjoying the stamp duty rewards from apartment construction in this area, now it's time for them to provide ... essential services."

Mr Constance said he would not rule in or out the government opting for a light rail line to Green Square, saying he did not want to pre-empt a transport master plan due later this year. "I have asked our agency to look at all options," he said.

However, he said short-term measures would have to rely on improvements to the bus network and encouraging "active transport" such as cycling.

The Committee for Sydney told a federal transport inquiry last year that there was a "growing realisation that we are going to need to augment public transport in and around Green Square with a light rail service" – even with the existing heavy rail line from the airport and plans for a metro railway station at Waterloo.

However, the advocacy group said the problem was funding a new light rail line because the government was unlikely to have money left over from constructing a $2.1 billion light rail line from the CBD to the city's south east and the new metro line.

It has suggested the council impose a "special rate" on residents, which could raise more than $12 million in revenue a year. In addition to fares, it said a levy would "go a long way to repaying the cost of capital" required to build the line.

Local resident Russ Johnson has been catching the train from Green Square for the past three years, and "lately it has got a lot more densely populated at peak hour".

"At peak hours in the morning you have to be in the right place at the right time. It's standing room only every day in the mornings," he said. "It's going to be like Tokyo and Hong Kong."

The crowding was challenging because trains picked up passengers at Sydney Airport who carried large bags after arriving on flights. "They don't realise they are [about to get] on a peak-hour train," he said.

Transport for NSW said it had made a concerted effort in recent years to ensure that public transport to and from Green Square kept pace with its development.

Since 2011, an extra 400 weekly trips have been added to the M2 and 343 bus routes through the area – half of which began in February.

Infrastructure Australia has put the need for better transport links between Sydney's CBD and Green Square among the country's top infrastructure priorities.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/green-square- ... wazy9.html
tonyp
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by tonyp »

Mathew Hounsell, a researcher at the University of Technology's Institute for Sustainable Futures who did the modelling, said the surge in apartments around Green Square meant the only solution was high-capacity public transport such as light rail. "No transport expert believes that buses can service the demand," he said.

Transport Minister Andrew Constance freely admits Green Square is "public transport disaster" but blames the previous Labor governments for allowing a high concentration of apartments without plans for an "appropriate mass-transport solution".

The City of Sydney has pushed the state government to commit to a light rail line from the central city to Green Square, and has spent $40 million buying land to preserve a 4-kilometre corridor from Central Station.

..............

"We had the foresight to acquire the corridor before land value and development made a light rail line near impossible, but the NSW government is responsible for Sydney's transport network – after years of lobbying them to build it, it's still not clear whether this essential project will go ahead," she said.

"The government is enjoying the stamp duty rewards from apartment construction in this area, now it's time for them to provide ... essential services."

Mr Constance said he would not rule in or out the government opting for a light rail line to Green Square, saying he did not want to pre-empt a transport master plan due later this year. "I have asked our agency to look at all options," he said.
.......................

The Committee for Sydney told a federal transport inquiry last year that there was a "growing realisation that we are going to need to augment public transport in and around Green Square with a light rail service" – even with the existing heavy rail line from the airport and plans for a metro railway station at Waterloo.

The crowding was challenging because trains picked up passengers at Sydney Airport who carried large bags after arriving on flights. "They don't realise they are [about to get] on a peak-hour train," he said.

Transport for NSW said it had made a concerted effort in recent years to ensure that public transport to and from Green Square kept pace with its development.

Since 2011, an extra 400 weekly trips have been added to the M2 and 343 bus routes through the area – half of which began in February.

Infrastructure Australia has put the need for better transport links between Sydney's CBD and Green Square among the country's top infrastructure priorities.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/green-square- ... wazy9.html
Huh? The mass transit mode is heavy rail. In Europe trams can do such a job to some extent, but they would never see it as a substitute for metro. With the rather bumbling approach to executing trams here, the capacity is going to be even less.

I'd say they've answered the question about where a Parramatta-Sydney metro line should go after it reaches the city. Turn south through Alexandria/Green Sq/Zetland, then east across to Kingsford, then down Anzac Pde to Little Bay.
Frosty
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by Frosty »

This interesting as a local I do see the crowding didn't help after Oct 2015 they cut direct CBD buses past Central on the X09/X10/309/310. Meaning more people using Green Square as an interchange. The Redfern interchange is very poor due to bus stop placings.

What would happen if they reintroduced the station surcharge ?

Some more buses could help for example the 343 running every minute instead of every 2-3 mins in the morning peak and introduce bendy buses or 14.5m buses onto the route. Simiarly can be said for the m20 it runs 5-10 mins in the morning peak. A cheap measure would be convert the X09/X10/X93 to run all stops along Elizabeth St after Bourke St.
Glen
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by Glen »

Perhaps some short starting trains from Turrella or Kingsgrove?
Tonymercury
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by Tonymercury »

Frosty wrote:
Some more buses could help for example the 343 running every minute instead of every 2-3 mins in the morning peak

That'd need a revolution over traffic light priority at the RMS, otherwise all you get will be two or three bus convoys.
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boronia
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by boronia »

If they build LR to Green Square, where would it run in the city?

They are not likely to provide to provide any more capacity in George St, nor dig up Elizabeth St for it. Frank Loewy won't let them use Pitt St.
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tonyp
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote:If they build LR to Green Square, where would it run in the city?

They are not likely to provide to provide any more capacity in George St, nor dig up Elizabeth St for it. Frank Loewy won't let them use Pitt St.
TfNSW realised that a long time ago. So Sydney City Council is frustrated that they've gone quiet on it, but it's not possible unless they open up more corridors through the CBD. Castlereagh St? The critical test will come 2019 when we see whether they've prevailed on RMS to give them full traffic light priority along CSELR. If they haven't, then the battle for light rail in inner Sydney is lost. That's why I'm suggesting metro.
simonl
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by simonl »

Clover Moore is a disgrace. Fancy suggesting supplementing heavy rail with light rail on the same corridor. Just run some more trains on the heavy rail if needed, BTW, the suggestion that the trains via Green Square are more overcrowded than other trains is completely incorrect, they are less overcrowded: http://www.sydneytrains.info/about/our_ ... _loads.jsp

Did Andrew Constance really call Green Square a "public transport disaster"? I don't really believe that and googling doesn't find it.
mandonov
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by mandonov »

It's not the same corridor though.

Green Square station is at the very far edge of the entire redevelopment precinct. The CoS proposed light rail goes to the opposite side where existing apartments have actually been built.

It's about serving the thousands of people east of Joynton and north of O'Dea.
mandonov
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by mandonov »

boronia wrote:If they build LR to Green Square, where would it run in the city?

They are not likely to provide to provide any more capacity in George St, nor dig up Elizabeth St for it. Frank Loewy won't let them use Pitt St.
I think Elizabeth Street will only make sense if a Parramatta Rd light rail comes to fruition. CSELR up Elizabeth, continuing down George to Broadway.

I've discussed it before, but passive provision for light rail-light rail crossings along CSELR are being provided at Crown Street and Liverpool Street. A possibility for a Green Square light rail is to go up Baptist/Crown to Oxford Street, along Liverpool Street, then north to Barangaroo.

The exisiting reserved corridor for the GS LR that the City of Sydney has created currently goes as far north as the Crescent/Phillip Street intersection with Bourke Street.
simonl
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by simonl »

mandonov wrote:It's not the same corridor though.

Green Square station is at the very far edge of the entire redevelopment precinct. The CoS proposed light rail goes to the opposite side where existing apartments have actually been built.

It's about serving the thousands of people east of Joynton and north of O'Dea.
Hmm, I could have overstated it. The article did not make this clear.
boronia wrote:Frank Loewy won't let them use Pitt St.
Loewy owns Pitt St?
Frosty
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by Frosty »

Maybe have mixed street running down Phillip St then around the back of Redfern Park into Chalmers St then continue it down Chalmers St to terminate the bay Platform of the CSELR.

Or simple solution just add more buses maybe we need to make better use of the buses should start to rip some seats out replace it with standing room until the rear door of the typical 12.5M LE bus used currently. We should be aiming for around 90 passengers per bus not the 65-70 currently on 12.5m buses. @tonyp can continue that part of the argument of fully low floor buses. It's a pretty short journey time and journey length it isn't like Northern beaches to the City.
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boronia
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by boronia »

simonl wrote:
boronia wrote:Frank Loewy won't let them use Pitt St.
Loewy owns Pitt St?
He may not own it, but he would have a lot of influence from his ownership of real estate on it.

A few years ago there were plans to have a LR loop from Central to the Quay along Pitt/ Castlereagh Sts. This pretty much died under objections from the "Pitt St Mall mafia". I don't recall if Loewy was directly involved at that time, but I can't see softening their stance to a traffic free mall.
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mandonov
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by mandonov »

Pitt Street Mall is far to heavily patronised to consider running a tram through the middle. Whatever Frank Lowy thinks, keep the mall for pedestrians.
Stu
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by Stu »

Here is a slightly older article from earlier this year. Turnbull's top infrastructure advisor has identified Green Square as requiring significant infrastructure improvements. Constance also throws in his 20c worth as well.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh ... mvbhf.html
Roderick Smith
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by Roderick Smith »

The only disaster is so-called management (feeding gullible politicians). The track capacity is there to run more trains, but the trains haven't been bought. This is a much quicker and cheaper fix than building megabillion goldplated ego-boosting 'metros'.
Green Square: 6.00-59, 8 trains; 7.00-59, 8 trains; 8.00-59, 10 trains, including one pair on a 3 min headway. I deduce that city inner is being shared with another route.
Inbound via Bankstown shares: 6, 6 and 8. Hence running at 14, 14 & 18 tph: lamentable unless there is a third line sharing too.
Because of incompetent engineers feeding gullible politicians, Sydney routes are wasting capacity by not running good headways: 24 tph is totally achievable, and signalling for 30 tph is much cheaper than building new metros (and Circular Quay was signalled that way in 1955, but the facility was removed by modern management as 'not needed'). Don't dredge up the 'dwell time' furphy: it doesn't stand up to scrutiny or measurement. Double-deck on 24 tph carries more passengers per hour per track than single on 30 tph, and double-deck on 30 tph (done in Paris) beats the lot.
Roderick
mandonov
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by mandonov »

Except double deck at 30tph is rarely if ever achieved in Paris, and that's with single-deck mixed in. It may be timetabled for 30 but it rarely goes above 24, and sorry if you don't want to hear it but it is in fact due to dwell time. Stairs are an enormous impediment to passenger flow and exchange.

You complain about spending on metros yet glance over the fact that the Bankstown Metro is exactly what will allow the airport line to run to its full capacity.
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by Glen »

Roderick Smith wrote:The only disaster is so-called management (feeding gullible politicians). The track capacity is there to run more trains, but the trains haven't been bought. This is a much quicker and cheaper fix than building megabillion goldplated ego-boosting 'metros'.
Green Square: 6.00-59, 8 trains; 7.00-59, 8 trains; 8.00-59, 10 trains, including one pair on a 3 min headway. I deduce that city inner is being shared with another route.
Inbound via Bankstown shares: 6, 6 and 8. Hence running at 14, 14 & 18 tph: lamentable unless there is a third line sharing too.
Because of incompetent engineers feeding gullible politicians, Sydney routes are wasting capacity by not running good headways: 24 tph is totally achievable, and signalling for 30 tph is much cheaper than building new metros (and Circular Quay was signalled that way in 1955, but the facility was removed by modern management as 'not needed'). Don't dredge up the 'dwell time' furphy: it doesn't stand up to scrutiny or measurement. Double-deck on 24 tph carries more passengers per hour per track than single on 30 tph, and double-deck on 30 tph (done in Paris) beats the lot.
Roderick
For a 45 minute period from 08:10 the City Inner has a constant 3 minute frequency.

For a 1 hour 10 minute period from 16:33 to 18:12 the City Outer has a constant 3 minute frequency.

Not offering a comment on efficiency, just stating the facts.

However on the question of "signalling for 30 tph" this was there before 1955, as mentioned here:

http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewt ... start=2125 (post at Sat May 13, 2017 8:30 pm)
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by Glen »

mandonov wrote:Except double deck at 30tph is rarely if ever achieved in Paris, and that's with single-deck mixed in. It may be timetabled for 30 but it rarely goes above 24, and sorry if you don't want to hear it but it is in fact due to dwell time.
That's interesting. What is your source for that?
mandonov
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by mandonov »

Glen wrote:
mandonov wrote:Except double deck at 30tph is rarely if ever achieved in Paris, and that's with single-deck mixed in. It may be timetabled for 30 but it rarely goes above 24, and sorry if you don't want to hear it but it is in fact due to dwell time.
That's interesting. What is your source for that?
The STIF, the co-ordinating body of the Ile-de-France region's transport network.
Page 36 of this document (in French) from 2012 details the struggle to achieve 30tph. http://www.stif.org/IMG/pdf/Deliberatio ... _RER_A.pdf

Translation:
1 • A structurally fragile line
There are various ways to measure the performance of a line. For peak hours, the simplest indicator is the number of trains passing through the central section (in the heaviest direction).
There is no specific indicator at off-peak hours. On the other hand, two indicators cover a whole day of exploitation: kilometric production and the regularity index. It is also interesting to track the number of incidents recorded.
1.1. Peak hour performance Since February 4, 2008, the date of entry into force of the current schedule, and until February 29, 2012, the table has actually been implemented 839 days.
During these 839 days, the average number of trains passing through Châtelet - Les Halles was:
• morning rush hour: 24.4 trains;
• evening rush hour: 25.5 trains.
These figures show that the 30 trains planned for the rush hour pass more in 1 h 10 min and underline the difficulty of operating the line, which is more acute in the morning.

For the evening peak, the table and the curve show that:
• the theoretical number of trains, 30 within an hour, is sometimes reached;
• it is reasonable under current conditions to target an average number of trains at 27 trains / hour.
On the other hand, for the morning peak, the table and the curve suggest that:
• the theoretical number of trains, 30 within the hour,
Is, under present conditions, hardly feasible;
• it is reasonable under current conditions to target an average number of trains at 26 trains / hour.
Examination of the monthly averages (excluding summer) of these numbers of trains at the peak hour reveals a great variability:
• from 20.8 to 26.9 for the morning peak;
• from 23.1 to 27.3 for the evening peak.
The causes of these important variations are numerous:
1. there are "seasonal rhythms": spring always gives better results overall than autumn or winter;
2. social agreements and, even more, the following period corresponds to a decline in performance;
3. The vagaries of operating days obviously play a major role.
Also this article sources another article (in French) with a graph of on time running stats for all the Metro and RER lines. RER A is the worst performing, hovering at or below 80% punctuality. https://www.thelocal.fr/20160331/so-whi ... e-in-paris
simonl
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by simonl »

Glen wrote:]For a 45 minute period from 08:10 the City Inner has a constant 3 minute frequency.
Hmm, I hadn't noticed that. Indeed, it starts from 8:07am, until 8:46am

FWIW, the city outer has a train ex-Central every 3 minutes from 8:09am until after 9am except 8:21am, 8:36am, 8:51am, 9:06am.
Tonymercury
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by Tonymercury »

simonl wrote:

Hmm, I could have overstated it. The article did not make this clear.
Newspaper articles getting facts correct? More and more unlikely
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by grog »

simonl wrote:
Glen wrote:]For a 45 minute period from 08:10 the City Inner has a constant 3 minute frequency.
Hmm, I hadn't noticed that. Indeed, it starts from 8:07am, until 8:46am

FWIW, the city outer has a train ex-Central every 3 minutes from 8:09am until after 9am except 8:21am, 8:36am, 8:51am, 9:06am.
Interesting side note that I made elsewhere... this week on Tuesday and Wednesday there was an unscheduled all stations ex-Ashfield service right before the usual inner west all stations service scheduled to depart Central at 8:39 - so for those 2 days at least the City Circle outer was fully utilised from 8:24 through 8:48.
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by grog »

The City Circle inner is at a constant morning peak 16tph, with an extra 2 ex-East Hills services during the busiest half hour bringing this up to 18tph (but 10 trains in the busiest half hour).

The City Circle Outer is also at a constant 16tph during the morning peak.

Sydney Metro will be what brings the most immediate relief to Green Square, allowing that line to run about 50% more services than currently scheduled (20tph vs 14tph) with the new timetable this year possibly providing an intermediate step to 16tph.
tonyp
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Post by tonyp »

mandonov wrote:but it rarely goes above 24, and sorry if you don't want to hear it but it is in fact due to dwell time.
Glen wrote: That's interesting. What is your source for that?
The STIF, the co-ordinating body of the Ile-de-France region's transport network.
Page 36 of this document (in French) from 2012 details the struggle to achieve 30tph. http://www.stif.org/IMG/pdf/Deliberatio ... _RER_A.pdf
Thank you for uncovering that. It supports what I read on the French transport forums. And don't forget this is with three-door-per-side-per car double deckers. If ones with three doors can't do it, two-door cars don't have a chance. This fantasy needs to be put to rest. Metro has the highest capacity of any railed mode. Fact.
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