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STA Privatisation / Franchising

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Thu May 10, 2018 5:32 pm

Likewise M10, of the eight or so noted today, all were blue and white rigids, predominately O405NHs.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Thu May 10, 2018 5:38 pm

tonyp wrote:I was a bit out-of-date with the changes on the 389, which was the old Bellevue Hill tram line, but I see that it no longer goes to the beach but now ends at Bondi Junction. A pity, as it would give TSA the opportunity to prove their worth serving the beach vs STA, if the route was supplied with artics.
Probably not cleared for bendis anyway with the roundabout at Five Ways. The former extension through North Bondi also has some fairly tight clearances. Whilst in theory they can negotiate the same streets as a rigid, bendis do tend to be kept away from routes where there is a high chance of a reverse movement being needed.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby hornetfig » Thu May 10, 2018 6:25 pm

Doubt it's any of that. Eastgardens is the only known proscribed artic location. Basically W only sends artics on scheduled 333 (and 610 school services) because W only sends artics on 333. Maybe it's because they'd wreak havoc with boarding at Bondi Junction interchange. But only maybe.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Thu May 10, 2018 7:08 pm

North Bondi wasn't an extension, it was part of the original route. 389 has now been cut back to BJ at the eastern end and extended to Pyrmont at the western end.

There's nothing on that route that would challenge an artic. Hornetfig may have a point about boarding, but surely with those three doors they should be fastest of all to board? No sensible operator would try to board up to 110 people through just the front door would they? [switch off irony] :?
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby 743 » Thu May 10, 2018 8:06 pm

Is every bus zone / stop on the 389 long enough for an artic to pull in to, park parallel and pull out of? I don't think so. It's all well and good for the route to be cleared from a turning perspective, but it has to be able to stop. It's not an easy fix, either - car parking would have to be removed, all stops set back safely from intersections, and residents and Council would have to be consulted.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Thu May 10, 2018 8:55 pm

tonyp wrote:North Bondi wasn't an extension, it was part of the original route. 389 has now been cut back to BJ at the eastern end and extended to Pyrmont at the western end.
So in other words it was an extension of the current route that no longer operates.

tonyp wrote:Hornetfig may have a point about boarding, but surely with those three doors they should be fastest of all to board? No sensible operator would try to board up to 110 people through just the front door would they? [switch off irony] :?
Yes but it's not going to happen, even if there were a change of operator, so apart from being a hobby horse of yours, why bring it up endlessly?

743 wrote:Is every bus zone / stop on the 389 long enough for an artic to pull in to, park parallel and pull out of?
As is stands no, but not a big issue to overcome if required.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby moa999 » Thu May 10, 2018 8:59 pm

Some of the stops don't even have pull in zones - eg both east and west bounds stops at five ways.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby boronia » Thu May 10, 2018 9:06 pm

tonyp wrote:This is quite interesting as it goes into the heart of the eastern suburbs. I was a bit out-of-date with the changes on the 389, which was the old Bellevue Hill tram line, but I see that it no longer goes to the beach but now ends at Bondi Junction. A pity, as it would give TSA the opportunity to prove their worth serving the beach vs STA, if the route was supplied with artics.

The Bondi Beach corridor is a real proving ground for the bus industry because it's one of those big corridors where the option of capacity upgrades to trains or trams have been ruled out for other reasons (some of them stupid in the case of trams), so the bus industry has to rise to the occasion because it's the only option for now. The only way they can do that is with a full service of (at least) three-door artics which really need to be all-door loading. Can TfNSW do it and, if not, can they let a private have a go at it with no restrictions on innovation?

The 389 never actually went "to the beach", but snuck into North Bondi terminus from the north west. Probably only locals, and savvy travellers would be aware that it could provide an alternative, with just a short walk at the end. Its roundabout route meant that it wasn't any quicker than the Bondi Rd cesspool unless passengers walked down from Glenayr Ave.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Thu May 10, 2018 11:08 pm

The 389 was going to have 1 x artic rostered during the AM peak as a trial in early 2016, commence from Seven Ways, Bondi and terminate at BJI. One of the driver trainers successfully tested out the artic on route 389 although the trial never officially launched of the ground. Maybe be the trial was looking very promising... potentially too successful..
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Thu May 10, 2018 11:43 pm

Some thoughts on why sonmany rigids are being used for metrobus routes in Region 6. There are quite a few shifts thst have a standard bus allocated - no exclusive bendy roster.

Prior to route optimisation in May 2013, T- Depot the used to operate 100% of metrobus routes 20, 30, 40 & 50. There were a little over 80 x Volvo B12BLEA (Volgren body) units in red metrobus livery allocated to T-Depot.
In recent years since 2014 the M20 has seen services increase dramatically although no existing buses were painted into red metrobus livery and no new buses. This is evident as in recent years the peak short workings would almost always have a rigid bus rostered - this has now changed.

Despite R-Depot losing its 50% share of route M50, R-Depot is keeping its allocation of artics to put on the M20 during the AM peak. This is another reason why so many rigids are being used for metrobus routes in Region 6.

Since day 1 of metrobus route 10 until just recently, this route was 50/50 between L-Depot and P-Depot.
Post route optimisation for Region 6. (approximately)
M10 = 1/2
M20 = 1/2 (T, P, R, Y & M) (T- Depot used to operate the late night short workings)
M30 = 1/2
M50 = 1/2
Total is equivalent of 100% of 2 x metrobus routes.

Segregation of Region 6.
M10 = 100%
M30 = 100%
M50 = 100%
Total = 3 x metrobus routes.

More metrobus trips without any extra red metrobus livery artic buses - with the exception of 2112.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Fri May 11, 2018 2:57 am

Transit Systems B10BLE (1359) training bus was in Campsie yesterday, a small group of new drivers were being shown some R6 routes as they will be commencing employment in R6 come July 1st. Smithfield Depot and Hoxton Park Depot are good for staffing numbers so the recruitment process is more focused on R6.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Tonymercury » Fri May 11, 2018 5:57 am

tonyp wrote: No sensible operator


No further comment required.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Fri May 11, 2018 6:53 am

743 wrote:Is every bus zone / stop on the 389 long enough for an artic to pull in to, park parallel and pull out of? I don't think so. It's all well and good for the route to be cleared from a turning perspective, but it has to be able to stop. It's not an easy fix, either - car parking would have to be removed, all stops set back safely from intersections, and residents and Council would have to be consulted.

Most of these former tram routes had stopping spaces that accounted for a 30 metre consist, which would probably be pretty-much the pull-in space for an artic. If car-parking has been allowed to creep into these spaces over the years, all that TfNSW needs to do (as I've said several times before) is enforce minimum standards for bus stops and ensure that RTA/councils comply with them. As for pulling out of the traffic flow, this doesn't happen in denser urban areas around the world (including Perth too incidentally, which has very narrow streets). Other traffic just stops and waits behind the bus - which is yet another reason for speeding up passenger exchange rather than having people file in slowly through the front door.

All of these things are achievable in principle with little effort, yet are apparently insurmountable issues in NSW. The only thing I agree with Constance about is pushing ahead with operational privatisation and slowly but surely eliminate the baleful influences of STA and RTBU and then somehow achieve a culture change at the state transport agencies. A journey of a thousand miles beginning with a single Region 6 step.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Fleet Lists » Fri May 11, 2018 8:12 am

What is the situation with 400/410 now?
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby boeing » Fri May 11, 2018 8:35 am

tonyp wrote:The only thing I agree with Constance about is pushing ahead with operational privatisation and slowly but surely eliminate the baleful influences of STA and RTBU and then somehow achieve a culture change at the state transport agencies. A journey of a thousand miles beginning with a single Region 6 step.


As a relatively new STA driver (and coming from a completely different field to transport), I'm genuinely curious what's seen to be the problem with STA when compared to private operators? Also, is there no unionisation in the private operations?
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Fri May 11, 2018 10:15 am

boeing wrote:
As a relatively new STA driver (and coming from a completely different field to transport), I'm genuinely curious what's seen to be the problem with STA when compared to private operators? Also, is there no unionisation in the private operations?

STA doesn't have the level of sophistication necessary for operating a major bus system in a major city (which is now fast becoming an international megacity). I don't want to start a list as long as one's arm, but they're not very good at providing capacity when it's needed and their operational productivity is quite poor in terms of delivering an output of patronage relative to the input into moving it. It basically hasn't grown patronage (numbers carried relative to rate of popualtion increase in its catchment) for over 40 years. In fact, in net terms, it has been losing patronage for years. Only recently, with the big population growth from immigration, has patronage started to improve.

The RTBU is in cohorts with this to some degree with a long history of restrictive work practices and featherbedding, most of which aren't really related to drivers' working conditions. The most damaging current restrictions imposed by the union are those on all-door loading and restriction of bus capacity to a level well below their design and legal capacity. These restrictions are very damaging to both productivity and to system capacity and have unfortunately been accepted without question by STA and TfNSW, probably just for the sake of keeping industrial peace.

The private sector is generally covered by TWU which, although I understand not receiving overly glowing references for its advocacy from some members, appears to be a more reasonable and productive union that doesn't have any history of imposing such restrictions in other jursidictions. Of course privatisation of region 6 doesn't necessarily mean that TWU will immediately become the union covering those drivers, many of whom will be ex STA, but there may be a drift over time to TWU.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby boeing » Fri May 11, 2018 11:30 am

@tonyp, thanks for the informative reply.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Fri May 11, 2018 3:08 pm

tonyp wrote:
boeing wrote:
As a relatively new STA driver (and coming from a completely different field to transport), I'm genuinely curious what's seen to be the problem with STA when compared to private operators? Also, is there no unionisation in the private operations?

STA doesn't have the level of sophistication necessary for operating a major bus system in a major city (which is now fast becoming an international megacity). I don't want to start a list as long as one's arm, but they're not very good at providing capacity when it's needed and their operational productivity is quite poor in terms of delivering an output of patronage relative to the input into moving it. It basically hasn't grown patronage (numbers carried relative to rate of popualtion increase in its catchment) for over 40 years. In fact, in net terms, it has been losing patronage for years. Only recently, with the big population growth from immigration, has patronage started to improve.

The RTBU is in cohorts with this to some degree with a long history of restrictive work practices and featherbedding, most of which aren't really related to drivers' working conditions. The most damaging current restrictions imposed by the union are those on all-door loading and restriction of bus capacity to a level well below their design and legal capacity. These restrictions are very damaging to both productivity and to system capacity and have unfortunately been accepted without question by STA and TfNSW, probably just for the sake of keeping industrial peace.

The private sector is generally covered by TWU which, although I understand not receiving overly glowing references for its advocacy from some members, appears to be a more reasonable and productive union that doesn't have any history of imposing such restrictions in other jursidictions. Of course privatisation of region 6 doesn't necessarily mean that TWU will immediately become the union covering those drivers, many of whom will be ex STA, but there may be a drift over time to TWU.


Also, STA/RBTU. Yep, don't forget the hysterical laughing stock where many (STA) drivers are trained to treat passengers that try to board through the rear door like Satan Spawn, so yell at them threateningly, while at the same time completely ignoring things like eating smelly foods on the bus, not tapping on. These are both completely silly (whereas in contrast I regularly see private operator drivers standing up for what STA drivers ignore) and tips me towards supporting STA losing region six, sorry.

Also, lets talk about "reverse privatisation". The service on my NightRide, N90, has in my opinion worsened in quality since STA took over because they have an annoying knee-jerk obsession of having to run exactly to the minute (for example, if we are 1 minute ahead, the driver will just stop at the next stop and read a book for a minute, won't depart until it ticks over). It's so annoying, Transdev were a lot more relaxed about having a margin of a few minutes either way. And if its not this, then they (STA) will start 5 minutes late or whenever they feel like it (i'm talking about the first runs of the night, not loops). Then now in winter at nighttime, most STA buses running N90 have cold aircon switched on whereas Transdev Bustechs always got climate right - it's a mess. Transdev should have never have lost that contract.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Fri May 11, 2018 3:51 pm

^ What a great sample of the differences in culture.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Tim Williams » Fri May 11, 2018 4:46 pm

Very good and relevant comments by TonyP
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby hornetfig » Fri May 11, 2018 5:54 pm

tonyp wrote:Most of these former tram routes had stopping spaces that accounted for a 30 metre consist, which would probably be pretty-much the pull-in space for an artic. If car-parking has been allowed to creep into these spaces over the years, all that TfNSW needs to do (as I've said several times before) is enforce minimum standards for bus stops and ensure that RTA/councils comply with them. As for pulling out of the traffic flow, this doesn't happen in denser urban areas around the world (including Perth too incidentally, which has very narrow streets). Other traffic just stops and waits behind the bus - which is yet another reason for speeding up passenger exchange rather than having people file in slowly through the front door.


It's worth noting that the 389/379 route between Bondi Jn and North Bondi is the successor to the tram, it's not the route of the tram. The 384 ran the route of the tram. The 389 route was a tram infill bus service dating to the late 1920s. Does anyone know the original DGT pre-1960 number of this route?
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby boronia » Fri May 11, 2018 7:12 pm

The 388 replaced the Bellevue Hill tram between Ocean St and Bondi from 1954. It ran from the City via KX and Edgecliff.

The 389 replaced the tram between city and Ocean St from 1960, the extended to North Bondi over the 361-2 route from 1961.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Ray » Sun May 13, 2018 11:42 pm

Seems to be a few people saying M20 is to be handed back to region six. Oh dear.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Mon May 14, 2018 1:47 am

Ray wrote:Seems to be a few people saying M20 is to be handed back to region six. Oh dear.


It personally doesn't make sense to me though. It doesn't even run through region 6? I can perfectly understand M10 and M30 for passing through Leichhardt and Newtown, respectively, to justify them as "Inner West buses", but M20? To me, it's a clear Port Botany bus
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Mon May 14, 2018 1:55 am

Hasn't it been traditionally supplied by T? T is a region six depot. But yes, if it doesn't run through region six itself, it makes about as much sense as region six being given an Epping run because L used to be Y's satellite..
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