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STA Privatisation / Franchising

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby J_Busworth » Tue May 08, 2018 8:38 am

Stu wrote:Region 6 is almost completely isolated from R7, R8 & R9, all that remains is routes 400 & 410 to be allocated into separate regions.


That would be the hardest route for them to assign. As most of the 400 is in R9 and it has the eastern 18 timetable code, it really should go to STA but I understand that it is a very long dead run for any depot to operate out of Burwood.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Tue May 08, 2018 12:30 pm

^ The new 400 timetable is meant to have new over night services, this would alleviate dead running if the 400 was allocated to R9. The 423 was also meant to receive 'enhanced' over night services although this is not evident in the latest timetable. Maybe when the new 400/410 timetable is released, so to will an updated version of the 423. I'm thinking hypothetically if the 400 was allocated to R6, it would be possible to build a new roster dedicated to the 400 & 423 over night services.

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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Tue May 08, 2018 3:09 pm

"phase out bendy-buses that cause increased congestion on our streets"


That rings alarm bells on two counts:

1. Decker operation would want to be long-distance, low-turnover routes only and hopefully this isn't an expression of general intent with articulated buses as a whole.

2. "Increased congestion on our streets" is caused by private motor cars, not by articulated buses. Even to talk in terms of any buses (or trams) "increasing congestion" is to soar back through a time-tunnel to the 1950s. No responsible transport agency should even be thinking such a thing in the 21st century. Surely they can't be serious, just clumsy with words?? Is RMS at them about it?

Indeed an artic, because of its capacity, saves road space taken up by buses because it does the job of virtually two 12 metre rigids. They also have a larger capacity than a double decker, plus the enormous advantage that they're not stuck occupying stops for anywhere near as long as a decker.

Just when you think that TfNSW has plumbed all the depths possible, they come up with another one. As essentially an optimist, I'll cling on to the "clumsy with words" explanation for the moment.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby In Transit » Tue May 08, 2018 3:20 pm

Unfortunately, the optimistic side would be interpreting it wrongly...
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Tue May 08, 2018 3:31 pm

In Transit wrote:Unfortunately, the optimistic side would be interpreting it wrongly...

Go ahead, make my day! :wink:

The only positive angle on it is that it opens the gate wide for introducing many, many more tram lines to replace buses.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Frosty » Tue May 08, 2018 4:32 pm

If or when the 400 does go all night there are already other all night R9 routes 301,394,373,380 + Nightride N10/N11.

The increased congestion argument was the same used to remove bendy buses from London if I’m not mistaken the bendy buses had a higher rate of accidents compared to standard buses or double deckers.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Tue May 08, 2018 4:46 pm

tonyp wrote:
"phase out bendy-buses that cause increased congestion on our streets"


That rings alarm bells on two counts:

1. Decker operation would want to be long-distance, low-turnover routes only and hopefully this isn't an expression of general intent with articulated buses as a whole.

2. "Increased congestion on our streets" is caused by private motor cars, not by articulated buses. Even to talk in terms of any buses (or trams) "increasing congestion" is to soar back through a time-tunnel to the 1950s. No responsible transport agency should even be thinking such a thing in the 21st century. Surely they can't be serious, just clumsy with words?? Is RMS at them about it?

Indeed an artic, because of its capacity, saves road space taken up by buses because it does the job of virtually two 12 metre rigids. They also have a larger capacity than a double decker, plus the enormous advantage that they're not stuck occupying stops for anywhere near as long as a decker.

Just when you think that TfNSW has plumbed all the depths possible, they come up with another one. As essentially an optimist, I'll cling on to the "clumsy with words" explanation for the moment.

One phrase covers this statement from the government.
NO IDEA !!
This just serves to prove the centralization to TFNSW is an absolute failure.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Tue May 08, 2018 5:14 pm

Frosty wrote:The increased congestion argument was the same used to remove bendy buses from London if I’m not mistaken the bendy buses had a higher rate of accidents compared to standard buses or double deckers.

I think there must be some sort of ex London Transport (or at least British) imported hard core dominating the bus side of TfNSW. This sounds like a typical UK solution of lots of little low-capacity buses (that includes their deckers) cluttering up the streets - I think the TfL fleet is about 7,000 buses!! - with high costs (particularly labour cost of so many drivers), slow journeys with long dwells and polluting the bejesus out of the city. We've been there, done that ourselves in the past and it looks like we're about to shoot ourselves in the foot again. Time to drain the swamp.

The (claimed) main reason for giving the artics in London the shove was fare evasion from all-door boarding (which adequate provision of RPOs would have addressed). Not lengthening bus stops in advance may have been a reason too, but I reckon that underlying it all was a parochial hostility to the concept, being something that came from "the continent" and all.

Plus the Boris factor, now unleashed worldwide!
Last edited by tonyp on Tue May 08, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Tue May 08, 2018 5:17 pm

burrumbus wrote:This just serves to prove the centralization to TFNSW is an absolute failure.

Yet centralisation under PTA WA in Perth is an absolute success. This indicates that it's not the centralisation per se that's the problem, its the professional competence and management skills of the state agency.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Tue May 08, 2018 6:03 pm

I'd agree with the latter statement,but I think the Perth PTA is the only centralized agency in Australia to be regarded as successful.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Tue May 08, 2018 7:15 pm

The fare dodging and a few fatal accidents with cyclists were issues, but the main beef passengers had with bendy buses in London was the relatively low level of seating. The majority of London's buses are full size 70-80 seat deckers, wouldn't describe them as 'little low-capacity buses'. Single deck midi-buses tend to work in the outer suburbs, with SWB buses only used in areas of low demand or where tight streets are traversed.

While London did go through the minibus experiment in the mid-90s courtesy of Harry Blunded who later inflicted it on Queensland, pie-carts have long since departed the UK scene. In reference to the Borismaster, no sales were ever made outside of of the UK. London is a far more congested city, with many of its major thoroughfares being two lane roads.

But back on topic from the TfL/TfNSW bashing, a full or partial fleet renumbering may be on the cards. If TSA continues using the legacy STA IT systems, probably won't be a problem, but if it implements the same systems it uses in region 3, some of the region 6 Merc O405NH and Volvo B12BLEs fleet numbers will duplicate buses in the region 3 fleet.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Tue May 08, 2018 7:24 pm

Linto63 wrote:The majority of London's buses are full size 70-80 seat deckers, wouldn't describe them as 'little low-capacity buses'.

"Capacity" refers to total carrying capacity, not seating capacity. Their artics could carry at least a good 30 people more than their deckers. Their deckers can barely carry as many people as a 12 metre single-deck rigid, let alone an artic. As I said, deckers are good for long express runs out into the suburbs where the seats are needed, but absolutely no good for busy, high turnover work.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Tue May 08, 2018 7:29 pm

burrumbus wrote:I'd agree with the latter statement,but I think the Perth PTA is the only centralized agency in Australia to be regarded as successful.

That's because it thinks and acts sharp like a private company, not byzantine like a public bureaucracy.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Tue May 08, 2018 9:10 pm

tonyp wrote:"Capacity" refers to total carrying capacity, not seating capacity. Their artics could carry at least a good 30 people more than their deckers. Their deckers can barely carry as many people as a 12 metre single-deck rigid, let alone an artic. As I said, deckers are good for long express runs out into the suburbs where the seats are needed, but absolutely no good for busy, high turnover work.
Therin lay the problem, a higher percentage of the passengers had to stand, thus the cattle carriage conditions were not liked with some onboard for up to an hour. Hence they were binned.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Tue May 08, 2018 9:13 pm

Linto,What types of routes were the London bendies used on ?? Were they short/medium intensive routes or long ,low turnover runs ??
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Tue May 08, 2018 9:23 pm

Must have been the former, as their small over stressed engines were known to catch fire! Why would MB do that?!? That is something you would expect from Hino buses -without the fire part.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Tue May 08, 2018 9:57 pm

burrumbus wrote:Linto,What types of routes were the London bendies used on ?? Were they short/medium intensive routes or long ,low turnover runs ??
The initial ones were used on the Red Arrow routes which were short distance services between the major railway terminals and employment and shopping hubs within the cbd, closest equivalent in Sydney was probably the former 555 City Loop. For this they were well suited with only short journey times.

But then they were introduced on routes radiating from the cbd to the suburbs with journey times of up to about an hour. The passenger base would have been a combination of short and long haul. While they had a higher crush load, two-thirds had to stand, which was a reverse of what the deckers they replaced had and hence the punters weren't overly happy.

Swift wrote:Must have been the former, as their small over stressed engines were known to catch fire! Why would MB do that?!?
Quickly gaining them the nickname 'Chariots of Fire'. After their time in London, some were sold to Malta where the same fate claimed a few more. That said recall reading that 1% of buses in the UK are expected to suffer a fire at some point during their life..a bit alarming. :shock:
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Tue May 08, 2018 10:22 pm

Linto63 wrote:After their time in London, some were sold to Malta where the same fate claimed a few more.

The Maltese were not impressed either when the UK based bus operator dumped these second hand units onto them. They proved to be ill suited to their tight streetscape.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Tue May 08, 2018 11:09 pm

That was Arriva,swift.That was a very ill fated contract.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Tue May 08, 2018 11:38 pm

* Confirmed Region 6 routes.
305, 308, 348 & 389.
401, 406, 407, 408, 412, 413, 415, 418, 422, 423, 425, 426, 428, 431, 433, 436, 438, 439, 440, 441, 442, 444, 445, 460, 461, 464, 466, 470, 473, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 483, 487, 490, 491, 492 & 493.
502, 504, 508, 526 & 530.
L23, L28, L37, L38 & L39.
X04 & X25.
M10, M30, M41 & M50.
Special event: X26.
(K-Depot now operate 1 x 305, 1 x 418 and a handful of route 308 trips)
(B-Depot now assist with operating route 530)

* Routes removed.
X03. (Region 9 route shared with Region 6). Route removed May 2018.
462 & 463. Route removed May 2018.
459 (Region 7 route shared with Region 6). Route removed June 2017.
430 & 495. Route removed June 2017.

* Routes no longer shared with Region 6.
301, 303, 309, 352 & 370 - now operated exclusively in the STA Eastern Region (9).
343, 458, 501, 506, 510 & 525 - now operated exclusively in the STA Western Region (7).
Unconfirmed: SOP 4 - most probably will be operated by the STA Eastern Region (9).
m20 is still spread out across three regions although now only three depots (previously five depots). P-Depot shared with R-Depot, N-Depot & M-Depot.
Last edited by Stu on Wed May 09, 2018 1:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby stupid_girl » Wed May 09, 2018 12:23 am

Stu wrote:* Confirmed Region 6 routes.
305, 308, 348 & 389.
401, 406, 407, 408, 412, 413, 415, 418, 422, 423, 425, 426, 428, 431, 433, 436, 438, 439, 440, 441, 442, 444, 445, 460, 461, 464, 466, 470, 473, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 483, 487, 490, 491, 492 & 493.
502, 504, 508, 526 & 530.
L23, L28, L37, L38 & L39.
X04 & X25.
M10, M30, M40, M41 & M50.
Special event: X26.
(K-Depot now operate 1 x 305, 1 x 418 and a handful of route 308 trips)
(B-Depot now assist with operating route 530)

* Routes removed.
X03. (Region 9 route shared with Region 6). Route removed May 2018.
462 & 463. Route removed May 2018.
459 (Region 7 route shared with Region 6). Route removed June 2017.
430 & 495. Route removed June 2017.

* Routes no longer shared with Region 6.
301, 303, 309, 352 & 370 - now operated exclusively in the STA Eastern Region (9).
343, 458, 501, 506, 510 & 525 - now operated exclusively in the STA Western Region (7).
Unconfirmed: SOP 4 - most probably continue to be operated co-operation with the STA Eastern Region (9).
m20 is still spread out across three regions although now only three depots (previously five depots). P-Depot shared with R-Depot, N-Depot & M-Depot.

Why is M40 in Region 6? :shock:
Also, it's strange that 525 and X25 are operated by different regions.
Last edited by stupid_girl on Wed May 09, 2018 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Wed May 09, 2018 1:18 am

^ Re: m40, typo fixed and SOP route 4 fixed as well.

Route X25 is only a few years old and operates exclusively in R6. Route 525 has been in existence for much longer although geographically it is split roughly 50/50 between R6 & R7, STA were just balancing out the labour and resources across the business hence why Ryde operated the majority of trips whilst Burwood were only scheduled route 525 Mon - Fri.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby LongliveSTA » Wed May 09, 2018 2:42 am

Stu wrote:* Confirmed Region 6 routes.
305, 308, 348 & 389.
401, 406, 407, 408, 412, 413, 415, 418, 422, 423, 425, 426, 428, 431, 433, 436, 438, 439, 440, 441, 442, 444, 445, 460, 461, 464, 466, 470, 473, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 483, 487, 490, 491, 492 & 493.
502, 504, 508, 526 & 530.
L23, L28, L37, L38 & L39.
X04 & X25.
M10, M30, M41 & M50.
Special event: X26.
(K-Depot now operate 1 x 305, 1 x 418 and a handful of route 308 trips)
(B-Depot now assist with operating route 530)

* Routes removed.
X03. (Region 9 route shared with Region 6). Route removed May 2018.
462 & 463. Route removed May 2018.
459 (Region 7 route shared with Region 6). Route removed June 2017.
430 & 495. Route removed June 2017.

* Routes no longer shared with Region 6.
301, 303, 309, 352 & 370 - now operated exclusively in the STA Eastern Region (9).
343, 458, 501, 506, 510 & 525 - now operated exclusively in the STA Western Region (7).
Unconfirmed: SOP 4 - most probably will be operated by the STA Eastern Region (9).
m20 is still spread out across three regions although now only three depots (previously five depots). P-Depot shared with R-Depot, N-Depot & M-Depot.

Hey Stu,

You can add the M20 to that list now! TfNSW made a mistake and forgot to tell STA it was a Region 6 contract route!!

This also means another fleet reshuffle, as some of the red artics STA kept, will have to go back to T or L, given the loadings on the M20.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Frosty » Wed May 09, 2018 6:21 am

The 343 being exclusive to Region 7 ??? How is that going to work considering so many 343 trips run just between Kingsford/Rosebery & City that would require a lot of dead running.

Though the m20 being shared between N,M,R & T makes sense considering N&M are closest to Gore Hill & Wynyard while R is close to Zetland and P to Botany & Mascot.
Interesting how will bus allocations work ? & I supect surely Region 9 will get the 400 & 410
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby J_Busworth » Wed May 09, 2018 6:59 am

Frosty wrote:The 343 being exclusive to Region 7 ??? How is that going to work considering so many 343 trips run just between Kingsford/Rosebery & City that would require a lot of dead running.


R was definitely working a 343 yesterday so I'd say it's being shared between R7 and R9
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