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STA Privatisation / Franchising

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Sat May 26, 2018 9:11 pm

burrumbus wrote:TSA seem to be very good at managing transitions from government operation to private operation.Let's hope that it and STA will manage the transition well.

When have they done this though? Did they take over from sta Adelaide days? In any case, I have a feeling this will be their most challenging one yet, the likes no one has seen before. Sydney is very unique.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Sat May 26, 2018 9:28 pm

Their first franchising was Swan Transit in Perth from the then MTT back in 1995.They then won more contract areas in Perth.
Through Torrens Transit in Adelaide they won contract areas direct from STA-government operation in 1997.They have also won government operations in Darwin and Singapore too.
I agree that region 6 is a very tough ask,because of the longgg history of government operation,entrenched culture and the congested nature of its operating area.The three owning families of TSA all commenced in the NSW private bus industry on the central coast.Neil Smith even earlier as the owner of Manly Bus Service.I think with this experience in the NSW industry they are well placed.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby OKO » Sat May 26, 2018 9:42 pm

J_Busworth wrote:I agree that cross city services should be cut back in half, all the original Metrobus plus the likes of the 343, 389, etc. I really don't think the CBD is that lacking in terminus space. Make a new terminus if the current ones are full, I really think there should be no on street parking in the City, just bus lanes, loading zones and bus layovers. I disagree with the notion that routes such the 400 should be spilt though. They offer a cross regional service that is very valuable and actually is better off as one route. Despite their unreliability, the 370, 400, etc are fine as they are.


The 400 should be split. BJI to the International Terminal, and Burwood to there as well. The 400 is particularly impacted by airport traffic, Botany congestion, and half way along the route to BJI from the airport. This results in short shunts, incomplete trips and complete missed services. There is next to no chance of these problems being addressed, let alone fixed, so the logical choice is to split it in two to allow at least one half not to be brought down by the other.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Fleet Lists » Sat May 26, 2018 10:03 pm

If that was to happen the Burwood section would need at least have to cover both Domestic and International parts of the airport. A lot of people use it to go to the domestic to avoid paying the station surcharge.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby swtt » Sun May 27, 2018 12:48 am

Fleet Lists wrote:If that was to happen the Burwood section would need at least have to cover both Domestic and International parts of the airport. A lot of people use it to go to the domestic to avoid paying the station surcharge.



I wonder how much it would cost the government in terms of Station Access Fees, compared to jacking up frequencies on the 400?

They'd probably get an absolute surge in patronage on the train, in the meantime able to hold off some bus frequency upgrades.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Tonymercury » Sun May 27, 2018 5:42 am

OKO wrote: Botany congestion


I assume you mean Botany Rd congestion? 400 goes nowhere near Botany.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby OKO » Sun May 27, 2018 8:31 am

Tonymercury wrote:
OKO wrote: Botany congestion


I assume you mean Botany Rd congestion? 400 goes nowhere near Botany.

Actually, I put that rather badly. I had in mind the traffic problems in the east around the light rail construction which as I understand it impacts them.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby boronia » Sun May 27, 2018 8:58 am

The 400 only has a short interaction with the LR construction through Kingsford and around PoW Hospital. The detours in place should not add significantly to running times.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Sun May 27, 2018 9:48 am

boronia wrote:The detours in place should not add significantly to running times.

Except with some buses climbing up Barker St being rounded up by pedestrians -frail ones!
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Stu » Sun May 27, 2018 9:05 pm

More lies from the rtbu:

Sydney buses: One-in-10 services regularly late in some suburbs.
Sydney’s commuters are suffering because of poor timetabling and under resourcing by this NSW Government.
RTBU NSW Bus & Tram Division President, Dave Woollams said, “Minister Constance’s greedy privatisation scheme is only going to make Sydney’s bus congestion worse. We’ve already seen the plans to slash Inner-West bus stops when Transit Systems begins on July 1 this year, and there’s no doubt that they will cut routes, close bus stops and reduce services in order to make a profit out of our public services. The answer is investing in our public transport services, not selling it off.”
RTBU - Bus Express online newsletter.


This is not a well written statement.
- the rtbu have seen the plans to close more bus stops on the Inner West when TSA take over...Will there be more bus stop closures in the Inner West upon the other bus stop closures from Nov 2017?
- 'no doubt that they will cut routes', who will? TfNSW or TSA? We all know TfNSW make this decision although the union are still engaging in some brain washing here.

The rtbu continue to fight a dirty war... a losing battle which was not lost when the announcement of TSA successfully winning the tender, more so the rtbu lost the war on the very same day that the government announced that R6 would be franchised.
Last edited by Stu on Mon May 28, 2018 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby swtt » Sun May 27, 2018 9:16 pm

That RTBU seems to want bus stops every 100 metres from the sound of things.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby J_Busworth » Sun May 27, 2018 9:25 pm

I think the RBTU has a point, even if they don't come across in the best way. I would take things such as the changes to the 422 and the cutting of the 462 and 463 as well as the stop rationalisation program as thing she RBTU fears will become more widespread under a new operator. The worse case scenario would be the complete network redrawn and the associated issues that occurred up in Newcastle. These fears are founded as we are already watching it happen under the guise of increased efficiencies all across Sydney and NSW. They don't want stops every 100 metres, they want the status quo to remain which isn't that hard to understand. It's a never ending ideological fight between pro private Liberals and the anti private Unions. I'm looking forward to see which private company Labor buys out or pushes out next time they are in government (TSA and Keilos Downer wouldn't be a surprise)
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Frosty » Sun May 27, 2018 9:30 pm

Then the RTBU turnaround and complain running times are unachievable doesn't help if there was stops every 100m. Sometimes bus stops are very close to each other that you could out walk the bus to the next stop i.e. on the 370 eastbound there's a stop on King St near Concord St then there's a bus stop around the corner on Sydney Park Rd 130m apart.

I think bus stops should be 400m apart for local bus services.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun May 27, 2018 10:06 pm

Stu wrote:More lies from the rtbu:

Sydney buses: One-in-10 services regularly late in some suburbs.
Sydney’s commuters are suffering because of poor timetabling and under resourcing by this NSW Government.
RTBU NSW Bus & Tram Division President, Dave Woollams said, “Minister Constance’s greedy privatisation scheme is only going to make Sydney’s bus congestion worse. We’ve already seen the plans to slash Inner-West bus stops when Transit Systems begins on July 1 this year, and there’s no doubt that they will cut routes, close bus stops and reduce services in order to make a profit out of our public services. The answer is investing in our public transport services, not selling it off.”


This is not a well written statement.
- the rtbu have seen the plans to close more bus stops on the Inner West when TSA take over...Will there be more bus stop closures in the Inner West upon the other bus stop closures from Nov 2017?
- 'no doubt that they will cut routes', who will? TfNSW or TSA? We all know TfNSW make this decision although the union are still engaging in some brain washing here.

The rtbu continue to fight a dirty war... a losing battle which was not lost when the announcement of TSA successfully winning the tender, more so the rtbu lost the war on the very same day that the government announced that R6 would be franchised.

The canges to the bus stops are part of the 2013 plan to create "Suburban" bus routes not only in region 6 but all over Sydney. They seem to have been very slow implementing this.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby swtt » Sun May 27, 2018 10:40 pm

J_Busworth wrote:I think the RBTU has a point, even if they don't come across in the best way. I would take things such as the changes to the 422 and the cutting of the 462 and 463 as well as the stop rationalisation program as thing she RBTU fears will become more widespread under a new operator. The worse case scenario would be the complete network redrawn and the associated issues that occurred up in Newcastle. These fears are founded as we are already watching it happen under the guise of increased efficiencies all across Sydney and NSW. They don't want stops every 100 metres, they want the status quo to remain which isn't that hard to understand. It's a never ending ideological fight between pro private Liberals and the anti private Unions. I'm looking forward to see which private company Labor buys out or pushes out next time they are in government (TSA and Keilos Downer wouldn't be a surprise)



Well, unfortunately it seems they're very slow in catching up to news then. As Fleet Lists has said, Sydney's Bus Future (released in 2013!) mentions that rapid routes should have stops spaced at roughly every 800 m, suburban every 400 m and local perhaps a little closer. Not news at all - they've had ample opportunities to fight it, if it were to be fought.

463 has been "cut", but in fact has been replaced with a far more frequent and all day service.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Sun May 27, 2018 11:07 pm

It seems to be a war of lies or untruths -from both sides.
I for one support a consistent 400m standard. Problem is some stops seem further apart than this on some routes, whilst others are ridiculously close spaced. E.g., Anzac Pde Maroubra where some stops are only one block apart. The section in Kingsford and Kenso has improved (maybe too much). It used to drive me batty hearing the stop bell going off for each and every stop all the way to the city.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Mon May 28, 2018 6:33 am

J_Busworth wrote:I'm looking forward to see which private company Labor buys out or pushes out next time they are in government (TSA and Keilos Downer wouldn't be a surprise)
Neither, in opposition Labor will often run a nationalisation agenda, only to get into government and 'discover' that there is a contract in place. Unless privatisation turns into a complete disaster, region 6 will most likely remain in private hands regardless of who is in power.

Fleet Lists wrote:The changes to the bus stops are part of the 2013 plan to create "Suburban" bus routes not only in region 6 but all over Sydney. They seem to have been very slow implementing this.
Like with most of these transport plans, governments cherry pick a few suggestions and ignore the rest, so hardly surprising.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby busdriver12 » Wed May 30, 2018 10:57 am

It's worthwhile adding that this process has been happening across the country for some time. We went through the same process here in Perth 20 years ago and our system has settled down and matured in that time. There will be teething problems as the new operators take over which is to be expected so yes, there will be a few blunders. It's part of the process, but it will all work out in the end.

The best thing for us is that the government (through our Public Transport Authority i.e. Transperth) has retrained control and ownership of the infrastructure leaving the operations and maintenance to the contractors which is good for the travelling public.

FWIW :)
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby tonyp » Wed May 30, 2018 11:08 am

The difference in WA is that PTA is an exceptionally competent agency. We're not so lucky in NSW. If things go wrong, it's less likely to be down to the private operator and more likely to be down to the agency.

I think I'm correct in saying that the operational contracting bus regime in NSW was kicked off by a Labor government, so they're most unlikely to reverse course, particularly when the outcomes are better and there's no significant loss of jobs.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby burrumbus » Wed May 30, 2018 3:43 pm

You are correct on the last paragraph there Tony.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Wed May 30, 2018 4:48 pm

tonyp wrote:I think I'm correct in saying that the operational contracting bus regime in NSW was kicked off by a Labor government, so they're most unlikely to reverse course, particularly when the outcomes are better and there's no significant loss of jobs.
Nothing like a bit of union cash to make them think differently though.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby J_Busworth » Wed May 30, 2018 5:57 pm

If Jodi Mackay remains as Transport Minister or becomes premier it would not surprise me if as contracts came to an end across Sydney, STA took them over. She seems to be a very good puppet for the RBTU alongside a few other Inner West and Newcastle MPs. A few RBTU election donations and the complete government ownership of all buses could become Labor policy.

The contract regions were designed to stop excessive numbers of private operators, and if it Labor had held on longer, I could see STA operating some regions currently held by privates. Region 3 had STA service which they could have used to expand completely into all local services, similar to what happened with North and Western.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Daniel » Wed May 30, 2018 6:44 pm

Sorry. Keep dreaming on that one...
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Linto63 » Wed May 30, 2018 8:29 pm

Can't see any of the existing privates being brought into government ownership, only the contracting out of regions 7-9 not occurring should Labor win the next election. The North & Western takeover was done primarily to win votes, it operating in a number of marginal electorates. In the pre integrated ticketing era, this allowed the cheaper STA fare structure to be rolled out.

IIRC, STA operated the Parramatta-Liverpool busway in region 3 largely because its bid was significantly lower than anyone else, racking up losses every year.
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Re: STA Privatisation / Franchising

Postby Swift » Wed May 30, 2018 8:44 pm

busdriver12 wrote:[color=#0000FF] There will be teething problems as the new operators take over which is to be expected so yes, there will be a few blunders. It's part of the process, but it will all work out in the end.


I hope the hyper criticism here of TSA's takeover of region three isn't repeated with six. I was one of the few posters that supported TSA, telling others to give them time to sort through the issues. I was proven RIGHT.
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