2018 draft timetable changes obtained by ABC

[andy_centralcoast]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... Train.html

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-1 ... fmredir=sm

[simonl]

Something isn't right with that timetable. Train "1 Oscar" from Gosford Nth departs Hornsby at 8:23am in the suburban section and goes via Gordon but in the interurban section it departs at 7:35am and goes via Strathfield. The timetable has the 24hour clock so it doesn't appear that it could be that error.

Instead of express peak-hour services via Chatswood to the city, it appears Central Coast trains could also be re-routed down the Northern line via Strathfield, with most services commencing from Gosford.

So this isn't clear.

[swtt]

A bit of tabloid reporting there! There is a lot of passenger turnover for these Penrith trains at Redfern and Central anyway. Not as if they're losing the train completely - it might just miss their stop by one or two.

On the other hand, City Outer trains are still rather empty by comparison. Heaps of capacity there to be utilised by the Western Line passengers.

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[simonl]

I completely disagree. Have you ever tried to change trains at Redfern or Central in the AM peak? It's bl**dy difficult to even get on sometimes. Some people might head down to platform 9/24 respectively although I doubt very many and I also doubt many would consider it acceptable.

[swtt]

I completely disagree. Have you ever tried to change trains at Redfern or Central in the AM peak? It's bl**dy difficult to even get on sometimes. Some people might head down to platform 9/24 respectively although I doubt very many and I also doubt many would consider it acceptable.

What solution is there then?

There is excess capacity into Sydney Terminal. No capacity into Town Hall on the Down Shore.

If Homebush trains are being extended to Parramatta then there may be some scope to increasing capacity to the west (very limited).

On the other hand, it isn't as if all western line trains are being sent to Sydney Terminal. I suspect only the trains ex Richmond and Schofields are being sent there, if the article is to be believed. Last time there was an article of this sort they reported that all Epping trains would be sent to ST and not Western line trains

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[grog]

If you read the document the last 3 pages show maps for a '2015' timetable (that clearly never happened), a '2018' timetable (actually likely to be implemented later this year with ECRL shuttles) and a '2019' timetable (post NWRL open).

It doesn't match entirely with the article - suggesting the article is poorly written. Ex St Mary's and Richmond line services will head through the city and over the bridge, all services from west of St Mary's will run express and terminate at Sydney Terminal (including Penrith starters).

[simonl]

There is excess capacity into Sydney Terminal.

Who cares?

Only a certain number of people want to go to Central Redfern.

No capacity into Town Hall on the Down Shore.

If I can take that as read, that is the exact problem I have been going on about for years and no one seems to want to deal with it. Non train nerds don't believe that they would do anything so stupid, including at my Liberal party MLA.

[grog]

1/3 CBD exits are from Central. 4 out of 16 Western Line services will terminate at Central. Same platform or cross platform interchange will be available at St Marys, Mt Druitt, Blacktown, Seven Hills or Parramatta. People can self select to the appropriate service or change at one of these stations. I see no need for mass interchange at Central.

[rogf24]

I have a feeling that this is not the timetable that will be released later this year. Look at Leppington, there's less than the 10 tph what was promised in an announcement earlier this year. It seems that this is just a timetable a few people messed around with to see what's possible and what's not.

[neilrex]

Fairly dodgy news story at ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-19/w ... ut/8442164

claiming that western suburbs trains will be cut in favour of "the north shore", which apparently means Eastwood and Rhodes.

[swtt]

hahhaha all Northern Line trains skipping Burwood on that "draft" TT. Not to mention, those five express trains departing Epping actually have stopped at all stops from Hornsby. Not quite new trains commencing fresh from Epping.

...and oh hang on, trains still departing from NEWCASTLE and not Wickham!!!

Totally unbelievable material. More like a train planner had been playing around with the software in his/her own spare time, as opposed to what has been fully cemented in!

ABC heading down the same quality journalistic tabloid trash.

[grog]

TfNSW already said that this isn't current (since the application for the documents was lodged in 2014) but I would expect the general shape of it to be pretty much the same (I.e. Full sectorisation, Western Line pattern etc.)

I fully expect that no T1 trains will stop at Burwood. There will be a single pattern Strathfield -> Redfern -> Central for reliability and consistency, and to shift load to the T2 services (similar to dropping Kogarah from T4 peak express services in the last timetable).

[molybtek]

The released draft is actually from 2014... ABC is still trying to appeal to get TfNSW to release newer versions of it...

[rogf24]

ABC is still trying to appeal to get TfNSW to release newer versions of it...

I hope so. They clearly have a big enough legal team to handle this sort of thing when they're not in a battle with News Corp. I hope the updated one is better as well especially considering the peak Inner West and South Line situation looks completely retarded, why not just stop at every station instead?

[Linto63]

A 2014 draft. Talk about a much ado about nothing, it's probably one of many drafts produced at the time and is likely to have been succeeded many times over by now.

[simonl]

1/3 CBD exits are from Central. 4 out of 16 Western Line services will terminate at Central. Same platform or cross platform interchange will be available at St Marys, Mt Druitt, Blacktown, Seven Hills or Parramatta. People can self select to the appropriate service or change at one of these stations. I see no need for mass interchange at Central.

Here's the actual figures from 2013 (Most recent figures I have), 6am-9:30am station exits:
St James 4630
Martin Place 12390
Central 31960
Redfern 7740
Museum 5300
Circular Quay 6440
Wynyard 32870
Town Hall 34310
Total 135640

So it's a bit under 1/4 although that's a bit irrelevant isn't it? There are already 1 in 5 trains via Parramatta to Central which terminate there and more than 1 in 2 via Eastwood. Closer to 1 in 6 via Hurstville. There are Shore/ESR and sector 2 exits of course.

Arguments like this tell me that you've never been there to see the actuality on the ground. Looking at the total over 3.5 hours is flawed. The peak is likely to be around 8:40 for those continuing on trains through and around 8:20-8:30 for those getting off and transferring, such as onto 891 services.

The released draft is actually from 2014... ABC is still trying to appeal to get TfNSW to release newer versions of it...

Yeah, although what changes are likely other than Wickham vs Newcastle?

[swtt]

Yeah, although what changes are likely other than Wickham vs Newcastle?

The introduction of B sets??????

[neilrex]

That ABC posting is quite strange. The link at the end of the article links to something, in which there is no actual proposed timetable for the western line. Only the three diagrams at the end.

But there is another link to a PDF version of the file, which seems to be different to the first one that comes up.

The current timetable actually has 10 trains from Penrith, and another 2 from St Marys. According to the diagrams at the end, for 2015, 2018 and 2019 ( as seen from 2013 , apparently ). There would be 14, 14, and 15 trains respectively serving various combinations of stations west of Blacktown. Nowhere do I see the 11 trains which they are claiming.

Edit: and also, originating 4 trains from Emu Plains seems very ambitious.

[neilrex]

There is quite a lot of overlap in the pedestrian catchments of St James, Town Hall, Museum, Martin Place and Wynyard.

A lot of people would find it easier to walk from where the train actually stops, than to bother changing trains , or going all the way around the loop.

For example, if you were a commuter coming from the Macarthur line and you worked near Town Hall, walking from Museum might be faster than going around.

And likewise if you came from the north shore line and worked near Martin Place.

The point being that not all of the people who would be changing at Central, would be headed for platform 16.

[Glen]

Fairly dodgy news story at ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-19/w ... ut/8442164

claiming that western suburbs trains will be cut in favour of "the north shore", which apparently means Eastwood and Rhodes.

The timetable link here is interesting:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... Train.html

[neilrex]

lunchbox wrote: ""Yesterday, on boarding a city-bound train on platform 3 at Chatswood,".....

Yep, trying to board a city-bound train from platform 3 at Chatswood is likely to be a disappointment.

[Glen]

Fairly dodgy news story at ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-19/w ... ut/8442164

claiming that western suburbs trains will be cut in favour of "the north shore", which apparently means Eastwood and Rhodes.

Why do you say 'dodgy' ?

[Glen]

The point being that not all of the people who would be changing at Central, would be headed for platform 16.

I thought a lot of people changed at Redfern because the walk was shorter from platform 1 to platform 3 or 5.

[grog]

1/3 CBD exits are from Central. 4 out of 16 Western Line services will terminate at Central. Same platform or cross platform interchange will be available at St Marys, Mt Druitt, Blacktown, Seven Hills or Parramatta. People can self select to the appropriate service or change at one of these stations. I see no need for mass interchange at Central.

Here's the actual figures from 2013 (Most recent figures I have), 6am-9:30am station exits:
St James 4630
Martin Place 12390
Central 31960
Redfern 7740
Museum 5300
Circular Quay 6440
Wynyard 32870
Town Hall 34310
Total 135640

So it's a bit under 1/4 although that's a bit irrelevant isn't it? There are already 1 in 5 trains via Parramatta to Central which terminate there and more than 1 in 2 via Eastwood. Closer to 1 in 6 via Hurstville. There are Shore/ESR and sector 2 exits of course.

Arguments like this tell me that you've never been there to see the actuality on the ground. Looking at the total over 3.5 hours is flawed. The peak is likely to be around 8:40 for those continuing on trains through and around 8:20-8:30 for those getting off and transferring, such as onto 891 services.

I'm coming out of one of either Central, Town Hall or Wynyard every morning during the busiest hour. I know what it looks like on the ground.

The only relavent numbers here are the stations served by the Western Line services, and the previous 2019 capacity analysis showed that about 1/3 departed at each station. The crowding will encourage people to self select to a service that goes to their destination - if your destination is Redfern or Central you would choose a Sydney Terminal service, otherwise you would choose a CBD service. If you are getting a train from Penrith (or another station without direct CBD service) you step off your service at Parramatta and step on the all stations CBD service that comes to the same platform 3 minutes later (which - being an all stops service is likely to be less crowded than other CBD services).

There's no denying that it's not the best situation, but it definitely looks to be thought out in a way that makes best use of what is available until ETCS L2 boosts capacity by 20% around 2021.

[simonl]

Well we'll see how acceptable people find it.