Sydney Metro West announced

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neilrex
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by neilrex »

If you are considering a service with very few stops, you really should be aiming for a top speed well over 100 km/hr

simonl
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by simonl »

neilrex wrote:If you are considering a service with very few stops, you really should be aiming for a top speed well over 100 km/hr
Like um, the current Western Line to Parramatta or even Blacktown?

Transtopic
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Transtopic »

Rails wrote:I think if you are going to the effort the tunnel should run from Parramatta to Central and not take over the existing line as some of the media reports showed was under consideration. I don't think that would preclude it from joining a future CBD relief line. In fact it would assist with the issues they had with the original WEX/CBD Relief project. Keeping it separate makes it more viable I think.

Also didn't they say shortly after the announcement of the original NW Metro back in 08 that they found that they could not utilise St James station as intended?
I presume you're referring to an earlier proposal for a tunnel from Granville to Croydon where it would link with the existing track (not sure which one though). Agree that it should be completely separate from the existing line from Parramatta to Central which would allow for a seamless connection to a possible City Relief Line. The one drawback is that the Main may become underutilised with fewer trains terminating at Central, although it would provide the potential for increased capacity for Intercity services.

In respect of the original North West Metro, the St James Station was to have separate platforms located deeper underground between the existing station (under the Archibald Fountain) and Elizabeth St.

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eddy
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by eddy »

Transtopic wrote:
eddy wrote:But I thought they were going to do a tunnel to a new station somewhere?
The Parramatta station site for the West Metro proposal was to be under Civic Place between Darcy St and Macquarie St. From memory I think that the station for the Parramatta to Epping Rail Link was to be under the existing station.
Surely they will not stick to using an overcrowded station that will not accommodate north and south fast rail or Badgerys creek ?
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Rails »

Transtopic wrote: I presume you're referring to an earlier proposal for a tunnel from Granville to Croydon where it would link with the existing track (not sure which one though). Agree that it should be completely separate from the existing line from Parramatta to Central which would allow for a seamless connection to a possible City Relief Line. The one drawback is that the Main may become underutilised with fewer trains terminating at Central, although it would provide the potential for increased capacity for Intercity services.

In respect of the original North West Metro, the St James Station was to have separate platforms located deeper underground between the existing station (under the Archibald Fountain) and Elizabeth St.
That is correct, I was referring to the Granvile to Croydon tunnel proposal, sorry I should have made that more clear.

I know it goes against the grain but I believe that you could initially make the Express Double Deck tunnel terminate at Central for transfer to Metro and then as a second project add the Relief Tunnel when required. The tunnel itself with none or perhaps one of two stations at most would be very cost effective as the big cost items are the underground stations, as the NW and C&SW Metro lines have shown, tunneling itself is relatively affordable, especially compared to a lot of surface corridor expansions.

Same for the Mains, you could increase the number of Intercity trains or create some express Suburban services that use this line to terminate for transfer to the Metro. Despite how maligned it is to a lot of people its the flexibility that I see in the design of the C&SW Metro that allows this and makes it desirable to commuters.

Depending on the final design of the West Metro there is a chance we could actually have two pairs of Metro Platforms under ST that head into the CBD, huge capacity! Of course that is only happening if you connect the West Metro to something like the Airport line rather than sending it a long a new path into the South Eastern Suburbs, that also has merit but I favour the Airport line Metro conversion myself due to extra services benefiting this well utilised line and the relief it provides to the existing network.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by mandonov »

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/up-to-a-dozen ... wfpk1.html

Up to a dozen metro stations possible between CBD and Parramatta

May 29 2017 - 6:33PM

Up to 12 rail stations may be built between Sydney's inner city and Parramatta and Westmead under emerging plans for a Metro West train line.

Fairfax Media understands the Metro West line is being planned to use extra tracks and overtaking lines to combine both express trains between Parramatta and the central city, as well as trains stopping at multiple new stations through Sydney's west and inner west.

The government has committed only to building stations for the line at the Bays Precinct around Rozelle and Olympic Park.

But a total of eight to 12 stations are likely to be included on the line when more detailed plans for Metro West, one of the last major commitments by former premier Mike Baird, emerge later this year.

It is unclear where those stations would be located. However, previous plans for a metro line in the region have included proposed stops at Leichhardt, Five Dock and Strathfield.

A private sector proposal for a metro line along the same corridor, put to the government last year, included stops and significant housing development at Five Dock and Canada Bay.

Under Mr Baird's timetable, the Metro West line was to be built next decade, and be "operational in the second half of the 2020s".

But business groups are increasingly pushing to accelerate work on the project, partly in recognition of the proposed intensification of development around Parramatta and Olympic Park.

The Greater Sydney Commission has nominated the so-called GPOP region – Greater Parramatta to the Olympic Peninsula – as Sydney's "true centre" and earmarked as a focus of planning.

A report commissioned by the Sydney Olympic Park Business Association, released on Tuesday, compares the infrastructure and amenity in the 4000 hectares in the GPOP area with an equivalent 4000 hectares in "east Sydney", an area stretching from the inner west to Bondi Junction.

Based on the government's population forecasts, the GPOP area is expected to be home to about 280,000 people in 2041, about the same as east Sydney now.

But the report highlights the relative lack of amenity and jobs in the GPOP area compared with Sydney's east. The report finds, for instance, that about 60 per cent of east Sydney residents catch public transport or walk to work, compared with 35 per cent of those who live in the GPOP area.

The report by SGS Economics & Planning also argues there needs to be a sharp increase in health and education facilities around the GPOP area to match facilities in the city's east. For instance, it says the number of schools in the region needs to double from 24 to at least 57 by 2041.

The western Sydney director of the Sydney Business Chamber David Borger says the Metro West project is needed as an equity measure.

"It's fine to have an ambition for GPOP and to talk about it in planning documents, but there's still a huge chasm between the provision of infrastructure services and all the things that are required," Mr Borger said.

"If we had the western metro, we would be able to achieve our aspirations for GPOP much quicker.

"If it is finished by the middle of next decade, that would be a good ambition to have."

Transport Minister Andrew Constance has argued the Metro West project is needed to take pressure off Sydney's already overstretched heavy rail line.

"By 2031, with the T1 Western Line, you quite literally won't be able to get people on trains in the morning peak," Mr Constance has said.

It is understood the government hopes to be able to combine both express trains between Parramatta and the city and all-stops services by using passing loops and extra tracks.

This is the method used on Hong Kong's airport train line to fulfil both objectives, although that line is also struggling with capacity.

The line is likely to be planned to extend eventually from Sydney's CBD to the city's south-east suburbs.

Alison Holloway, principal and partner at SGS Economics, says transport accessibility is critical to the government's ambitions for the GPOP area.

"We are seeing now in Green Square what the implications are of planning for population growth without the transport to support it," Ms Holloway said.

"We've got an opportunity here to align the land use planning with the transport and other infrastructure planning."

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by rogf24 »

It is understood the government hopes to be able to combine both express trains between Parramatta and the city and all-stops services by using passing loops and extra tracks.

This is the method used on Hong Kong's airport train line to fulfil both objectives, although that line is also struggling with capacity.
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The line is likely to be planned to extend eventually from Sydney's CBD to the city's south-east suburbs.
Good, so it'll likely serve eastern side of Green Square. Even if it will serve Green Square, I think there still might be space for light rail in that area. It'll act as a local east-west connection within the precinct. Same with the Strathfield/Olympic Park light rail and metro.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by tonyp »

I feel that when these precincts (Olympic Park and south Sydney) are so densely loaded up with both rail and metro lines, there won't be a need for trams as well, assuming decent station-spacing on the rail lines. It's going to be one of those cases where buses are going to be able to do the infill service work quite adequately provided that they have productivity improvements over the existing operation. This means erasing both the present operational restrictions imposed by TfNSW and the TB union and the design/engineering limitations on the vehicles that restrict them from maximising their efficiency.
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rogf24
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by rogf24 »

I don't know where exactly the stations will be but I'm hoping the metro will enter the CBD from the north and then exit the CBD at around the new Pitt St station and then on to Taylor Square and then down to the eastern side of Green Square. The east Green Square passengers who need to go to Central can take the tram. The tram will also be useful for the redevelopment of the Redfern estate.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote:This means erasing both the present operational restrictions imposed by TfNSW and the TB union and the design/engineering limitations on the vehicles that restrict them from maximising their efficiency.
I think everyone is well aware of Tonyp's hatred of TfNSW, everything it and its predecessors have ever done, and trade unions and their members, but do we need to read about it in every thread? It does become a bit boring. :roll:

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Richard290 »

Transtopic wrote:
eddy wrote:But I thought they were going to do a tunnel to a new station somewhere?
The Parramatta station site for the West Metro proposal was to be under Civic Place between Darcy St and Macquarie St. From memory I think that the station for the Parramatta to Epping Rail Link was to be under the existing station.
As a resident of Carlingford who has been dying to wait for the Parramatta to Epping rail link for nearly 20 years, IMHO, the North West and PERL should have been connected to the Richmond branch (NW Line) and the Main Western at Parramatta (PERL), so that inbound all-station trains originating from Blacktown could be diverted up the PERL through Carlingford and Epping to Macquarie Park and Chatswood. The North West and PERL would converge at Epping, travel east to Chatswood, head south under the new Harbour rail tunnel through the City to Central before returning to Penrith/Emu Plains or Richmond via the Main Western, effectively functioning as a 'Western loop.' The current Northern and North Shore lines could operate as a 'Northern' loop, i.e. Hornsby, all to Epping, all to Strathfield, Burwood, Redfern, Central, all to North Sydney, all to Chatswood, all to Hornsby/Berowra etc.

This plan will realistically not happen under the Berejiklian/Constance proposal with Sydney Metro, but it makes sense in terms of service operation (in my opinion).
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by tonyp »

rogf24 wrote:I don't know where exactly the stations will be but I'm hoping the metro will enter the CBD from the north and then exit the CBD at around the new Pitt St station and then on to Taylor Square and then down to the eastern side of Green Square. The east Green Square passengers who need to go to Central can take the tram. The tram will also be useful for the redevelopment of the Redfern estate.
Given such a dense overlay of rail lines in the area, I'm not sure that trams offer any additional benefit over buses. After all, a 30 metre tram is just two articulated buses (assuming TfNSW and the union can eventually get their hands ripped away from nobbling the buses). I'm a realist - I don't think the government are going to be able to execute tram operations in Sydney anywhere near as effectively as the old Sydney system or most European systems. It's going to be slow and over-engineered in a tight and complex environment like south Sydney. Save it for the straight and wide major corridors. (It grieves me to say that because trams work very well in narrow winding corridors - but not in today's NSW where nobody knows the skills and shows no sign of seeking them.)

We need to re-energise the bus system by bringing in new professional blood to planning (but absolutely not from UK), privatise the operating regions and get it all started again, with more capacity through greater efficiency. It's been well-proven elsewhere that buses can do this sort of supporting job just fine with the right planning and resources. Light rail needs to be very carefully considered as to where it can be inserted to improve capacity effectively, yet not be overwhelmed by long-term growth.
Linto63 wrote:I think everyone is well aware of Tonyp's hatred of TfNSW, everything it and its predecessors have ever done, and trade unions and their members, but do we need to read about it in every thread? It does become a bit boring. :roll:
I've been a union member all my working life. I absolutely believe that unions should be there to help protect the rights and conditions of their members. But I don't believe they have a role nobbling industries to the ultimate detriment of their members. TfNSW needs better professional expertise. It keeps coming up because these issues intrude on many topics for discussion here.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by rogf24 »

tonyp wrote:Given such a dense overlay of rail lines in the area, I'm not sure that trams offer any additional benefit over buses. After all, a 30 metre tram is just two articulated buses (assuming TfNSW and the union can eventually get their hands ripped away from nobbling the buses). I'm a realist - I don't think the government are going to be able to execute tram operations in Sydney anywhere near as effectively as the old Sydney system or most European systems. It's going to be slow and over-engineered in a tight and complex environment like south Sydney. Save it for the straight and wide major corridors. (It grieves me to say that because trams work very well in narrow winding corridors - but not in today's NSW where nobody knows the skills and shows no sign of seeking them.)

We need to re-energise the bus system by bringing in new professional blood to planning (but absolutely not from UK), privatise the operating regions and get it all started again, with more capacity through greater efficiency. It's been well-proven elsewhere that buses can do this sort of supporting job just fine with the right planning and resources. Light rail needs to be very carefully considered as to where it can be inserted to improve capacity effectively, yet not be overwhelmed by long-term growth.
Well it will be nice if buses could handle the thing but if the government can't execute bus or tram operations correctly and efficiently, at least trams have some advantage over buses and that matters in an environment like Green Square. Of course, it will be better if they can fix the buses but I'm not entirely convinced they can at the moment. They also do some pretty urban design works, aesthetically useful but functionally useless, unlike buses, that's not a bad thing for Green Square. An extension will also be quite cheap, it'll be less than 3 km from the Devonshire St intersection so a branch should cost less than $50 million if nothing too fancy is used.

Speaking of long, wide corridors, a tram down the inner city section of Parramatta Rd will pretty much fit that bill although it will compete with Metro and Inner West Line but I don't think that a tram down that road will be useless.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Transtopic »

From my observations in recent days and reading between the lines, there would appear to be some disagreement between the Federal and State Governments over the direction of the Joint Western Sydney Rail Needs Scoping Study, particularly with regard to a future rail link to the Badgerys Creek Airport. Hence, the likely reason for the State Government drip feeding us more information, limited as it is, about a proposed West Metro between the CBD and Parramatta. What is the point, when they are nowhere near deciding on what route to take or potential station locations? Apart from pre-empting the recommendations of the study, it's all about political positioning to reinforce the State Government's agenda for expansion of the metro network to solve all of Sydney's rail capacity problems. It may solve some, but not all.

There seems to be a reluctance on the part of the State Government to commit significant funding for upgrading and extending the existing network with new track infrastructure, instead for ideological reasons, preferring a 'one size fits all' privatised metro network. In the real world, especially in a place like Sydney with a long established legacy rail network, that just doesn't work. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Both modes have a place.

It would appear that the Federal Government representatives involved in the joint study prefer an extension of the SWRL from Leppington via the new airport to the Western Line, effectively forming a loop between T2 and T1 on the existing network and hence the conflict. While St Marys has been suggested as a point of convergence, it would be more logical to connect with the Western Line at Rooty Hill to provide a more direct and faster connection to Parramatta and the Sydney CBD via the existing Western Main express tracks.

The West Metro, which I support, should be limited to providing a frequent all stations service between Westmead/Parramatta and the CBD on a new alignment servicing Inner West locations north of Parramatta Rd.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Johnny78 »

Hey everyone, long time lurker but first-time poster.

I just wanted to ask if you if you know where I can find where these metro stations will be located (documents, masterplans, long-term strategy plans, etc). I had a look on the web, one interesting article I came across was from Build Sydney https://www.buildsydney.com/sydney-metr ... arramatta/ but even it only shows stations at Parramatta, Olympic Park, The Bays Precinct & the Sydney CBD... would you know where I could get the info on further stations or maybe a link to where they would get posted if they do get released?

Would it be safe to say that Camelia will be a stop considering the Olympic Park branch of the light rail is now not going ahead?

Thanks very much, I look forward to continuing this conversation.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Rails »

Johnny78 wrote:Hey everyone, long time lurker but first-time poster.

I just wanted to ask if you if you know where I can find where these metro stations will be located (documents, masterplans, long-term strategy plans, etc). I had a look on the web, one interesting article I came across was from Build Sydney https://www.buildsydney.com/sydney-metr ... arramatta/ but even it only shows stations at Parramatta, Olympic Park, The Bays Precinct & the Sydney CBD... would you know where I could get the info on further stations or maybe a link to where they would get posted if they do get released?

Would it be safe to say that Camelia will be a stop considering the Olympic Park branch of the light rail is now not going ahead?

Thanks very much, I look forward to continuing this conversation.
You can't for the West Metro, its not even decided let alone available to the public yet. The only confirmed stations are Parramatta, Olympic Park, White Bay and a CBD stop (thought to be Martin Place but not confirmed either). They are apparently considering up to 12 stops and Camellia was one of the stops in the original West Metro proposal though so I bet it's on the list for consideration.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Fleet Lists »

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/newsroo ... metro-west
Go west: consultation starts on Metro West
27 June 2017

Consultation has begun on the city-shaping Sydney Metro West project, Sydney’s next major infrastructure project.

Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Andrew Constance today welcomed input from the community and industry on what the Metro West project should look like.

“This is a chance for the people of Sydney’s Greater West to have their say on this massive city-shaping project,” Mr Constance said.

“New metro rail will become the fastest, easiest and most reliable journey between the Sydney and Parramatta CBDs. Like the Sydney Harbour Bridge did a century ago, Sydney Metro West will shape this city for the next one hundred years and beyond.”

Sydney Metro West will provide a direct connection between the CBDs of Parramatta and Sydney - unlocking housing supply and employment growth between the two major CBDs.

Sydney Metro West will work with the existing T1 Western Line, effectively doubling rail capacity from Parramatta to the CBD, and linking communities along the way.

The final number of stations and the alignment of the line will be finalised through community and industry consultation. Four key precincts to be serviced have been identified as:

Parramatta, where the number of jobs is expected to double over the next 20 years to 100,000;
Sydney Olympic Park, which will be home to 34,000 jobs and more than 23,000 residents by 2030;
The Bays Precinct, Sydney’s new innovation hub where 95 hectares of land is being regenerated;
The Sydney CBD, allowing easy access to the existing public transport network and Stages 1 and 2 of Sydney Metro.
The project is expected to be built largely underground and be operational in the second half of the 2020s.


Sydney Metro is the biggest urban railway project in Australian history. The NSW Government is currently delivering Stages 1 and 2 – 31 metro stations and 66km of new metro rail – with the first services to start in the first half of 2019.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by tonyp »

Sydney Metro is the biggest urban railway project in Australian history.
Or maybe the biggest urban railway project in the known universe within the property curtilage of 18 Lee Street, Chippendale?

In terms of heavy rail and coverage, I would think that would be the building of almost the entire Melbourne suburban railway system in the second half of the 19th century. In terms of street railways (tramways), it would have to be the gen 2 Sydney tramways, a major interchange of which was right outside the door of 18 Lee Street.

Perhaps they mean the greatest amount of money poured into an urban rail project?
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by GazzaOak »

I think they should still have the light rail on parra road as well, but spread out the west metro stations along the parra road section quite a bit

It's will be like the metro extended to eastern suburbs, and complementing the CSLR, except its will be inner west.... its will be more of a complement rather than competing
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Tonymercury »

tonyp wrote:
Sydney Metro is the biggest urban railway project in Australian history.
Or maybe the biggest urban railway project in the known universe within the property curtilage of 18 Lee Street, Chippendale?
I'mm sure that it sounded really good in the PR office when they thought it up - possibly because 'fact checking', or even 'exaggeration checking' is banned there.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by flitter »

Okay, I'll bite... what's a bigger urban railway project in australia?

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by rogf24 »

Or perhaps the biggest automated urban rail project in Australian history?

At 65km long, it'll also be the world's longest automated railway line, but not the largest automated system. However, this too will be overtaken by Paris Metro's orbital Line 15 a only few years after Sydney Metro's "initial system" opens.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by tonyp »

flitter wrote:Okay, I'll bite... what's a bigger urban railway project in australia?
As I said, probably this:
the building of almost the entire Melbourne suburban railway system in the second half of the 19th century.
In terms of a single line, the 110 km of the Mandurah-Butler line (even though under two line names, but physically the same line with the same trains running through) will take some beating. And it's going to be extended to Yanchep. Even with extensions to Marsden Park and Liverpool, the Sydney metro is unlikely to beat that.

Dream on, TfNSW.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by grog »

Can you really call building a system over 50 years a 'project'?

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Fleet Lists »

I cant see why not but it is certainly taking things to an extreme.
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