Sydney Metro West announced

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
mandonov
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by mandonov »

swtt wrote:
Because interchanging at Lidcombe is nuts?

Don't forget SOP is now tranforming itself into a business + residential hub. Opal Tower saga aside, the Carter St precinct means Olympic Park Station in the way it operates, and how the West lines are at saturation, will simply be its own Carlingford Line style (albeit frequent) service - shuttles to Lidcombe even if there is patronage to warrant direct services.

It's also affording places like The Bays, Five Dock, Burwood North and Nth Strathfield a direct link to SOP. Adding more 525/526s from Strathfield isn't really viable from those catchments either.

It will also be able to relieve Rhodes as the interchange station for Wentworth Point customers travelling to the City, and also into Parramatta.
You misunderstand the context of my post. My argument is that the metro station doesn't need to be massively gold plated when it and the existing station are more than capable enough to handle crowds.

I disagree with spending extra money on the Metro West SOP station to have specific event platforms and/or ancillary infrastructure as lunchbox suggested. I think an SOP metro station with a wide island platform and a lot of escalators is all that is necessary seeing as we're almost trebling the heavy rail capacity into the SOP precinct with Metro West.

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swtt
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by swtt »

mandonov wrote: I disagree with spending extra money on the Metro West SOP station to have specific event platforms and/or ancillary infrastructure as lunchbox suggested. I think an SOP metro station with a wide island platform and a lot of escalators is all that is necessary seeing as we're almost trebling the heavy rail capacity into the SOP precinct with Metro West.
My bad. Should've noticed you were replying to "lunchbox"'s post instead.

I agree - that a single island platform with fast escalators will be sufficient. If it's fully automatic with sufficiently quick passenger movement, additional platforms might not be needed. Perhaps some crossovers in the tunnels would be nice, but otherwise, what's stopping the train from heading all the way to Westmead (which wouldn't be more than 10 min away) and turn turning around?

grog
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by grog »

Almost everything lunchbox raises is addressed since the EIS. At Westmead there is no road to cross a road as Alexandra Ave is being relocated and the Metro and Sydney Trains stations will be integrated. Same at North Strathfield. The EIS also mentions Olympic Park being designed for event crowds.

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tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by tonyp »

mandonov wrote:Why on earth would you spend a fortune making a grand Olympic Park events station when there's already a grand Olympic Park events station??

The existing station in events mode can already move something like 48,000pp/h? The metro will then almost treble that capacity with its 40,000pp/h per direction at full 30TPH.

So in the near future the heavy rail capacity (not even counting future Parra LR) at Olympic Park for events will be 48,000 + 80,000 - other users of metro = 100,000pp/h at least. ANZ Stadium only holds 83,000 spectators, set to be reduced to 70,000 by the time this line is constructed. Even with concurrent events, the existing station and a wide island platform metro station will be more than adequate for many decades; especially if they're ever augmented even further with a north-south metro in the distant future.

I think it's a waste of money to construct or even future proof for any specific events infrastructure for the metro. What really matters is ensuring there's 4 doors per carriage side to sweep platforms in seconds, especially if there's only to be one or two CBD stations.
Although OPS itself might be able to process crowds in the 40,000s per hour, that is whittled down by the capacity of the rest of the system to handle such numbers of trains once they're outside of the Olympic Park loop.

I'm sceptical that they'll move to four doors per car for trains on this line. They'll be thinking of both overall fleet standardisation and the fact that this line will ultimately be extended to Badgerys Creek (which is why its on the southern side at Westmead) and they won't want to erode seating capacity any further. It'll probably be similar to the thinking evolution in Perth where they were going to have four doors on the C series but in the end decided to strike a balance with three. Either way it'll have to be a firm decision because of platform doors. Three doors is still very good, far better than two.
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Transtopic
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Transtopic »

grog wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:57 pm
Almost everything lunchbox raises is addressed since the EIS. At Westmead there is no road to cross a road as Alexandra Ave is being relocated and the Metro and Sydney Trains stations will be integrated. Same at North Strathfield. The EIS also mentions Olympic Park being designed for event crowds.
I don't think it adequately addresses the issues raised by lunchbox at all, particularly with regard to interchange between the metro and Sydney Trains at Westmead and North Strathfield.

As far as I can tell, there haven't been any concept designs released for the stations themselves, showing layouts and cross-section elevations and how they will inter-connect with the existing surface platforms. You would think that this should be an essential prerequisite before any construction starts. It all seems like planning on the run to me.

In the case of Westmead, while Alexandra Ave will be permanently diverted around the metro station site and in the absence of an underground pedestrian concourse linking the metro platforms with the surface platforms, interchange will still necessitate up and down movements and a long walk between the surface platforms, the overhead concourse, the surface metro concourse and the underground metro platforms and of course vice versa. This is hardly conducive to creating any incentive to interchange, which is allegedly a major justification for the project to relieve overcrowding on the T1 Western Line. How this will work in relieving overcrowding west of Westmead is yet to be demonstrated. So far, there's been no suggestion that an underground pedestrian concourse linking all platforms is contemplated. It's essential.

Ideally, the metro platforms should have been constructed below the existing station with a common underground concourse in between, in addition to the existing overhead concourse for street access, all by escalators. This is a similar arrangement which currently exists at Epping. The ideal arrangement would have been like Chatswood, with cross platform interchange, but that was more to do with circumstance than by design, because the metro took over the ECRL.

The same less than desirable situation can be said for North Strathfield. However, unlike Westmead, an underground pedestrian concourse linking all platforms is not practicable, as the freight line dive runs between the metro and Sydney Trains platforms. It will also require up and down movements for interchanging passengers.

Another issue which hasn't yet been raised in respect of North Strathfield, is the lack of a platform for the future Up Suburban (Relief) line to complete quadruplication between Strathfield and Epping. When the freight line dive was planned and constructed, space was left between it and the existing Up North Main for an additional track to complete the quadruplication. However, there is no room for an additional platform because of the dive, unless it is staggered some distance from the existing surface platforms. The Down Suburban (Relief) track already has a platform, which is platform 3.

The reason why I raise this issue is because the government has intimated that CCN Intercity trains may also stop at North Strathfield to allow interchange with Metro West, which would be particularly useful for those destined for Sydney Olympic Park or Parramatta. Under current operating conditions on the existing quad track between West Ryde and Epping and the Third track in the Down direction between Epping and Thornleigh (I know it's actually uphill), Intercity and Regional trains, in addition to some Suburban express peak services and freight, generally run on the Suburban tracks (outer track pair) and all stations Suburban services on the North Main (inner track pair). Once quadruplication is completed as part of the Northern Line Freight Corridor program within the next decade, I expect that this pattern will be reinforced.

If CCN Intercity services do stop at North Strathfield to allow interchange to Metro West, then without an additional platform on the new Up Suburban track, they would be forced to cross to the Main track to access the current platform 1. All that will do is compromise services on the Northern Line by interfering with the separation of express and all stations services on the quad track.

grog
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by grog »

Nothing you say is wrong, as far as what the best case would be, but I don’t think the compromise that they have ended up with is so bad.

For Westmead, from reading between the lines it appears there would be a common single level concourse at Hawkesbury Road street level. Presumably this would be the gate line. You would have stairs down from this level to Sydney Trains platforms, and escalators to Sydney Metro platforms. Interchange would be escalator up, and stairs down, with a walk of 40-60m between them. You can bet the escalators will be as fast as they can get away with.

It’s not as good as platforms directly below, but it’s certainly workable, and would attract quite a bit of interchange, and definitely no leaving the station and crossing a road as lunchbox suggested.

Arrangement at North Strathfield would be almost the same, but with shallower platform for metro making it quicker.

For a 4th platform at North Strathfield, you could start an offset platform just south of the existing pedestrian bridge. Presumably this is where a new concourse would be located and so would still allow direct concourse access to all 4 platforms. Again, not the best possible solution, but a pretty good one.

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tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by tonyp »

The biggest issue at Westmead is that the tram terminus should be brought around into Railway Pde (preferably a pedestrian plaza) to create a close interchange on that side also, rather than having to cross two roads to get to the tram. If I was using Westmead Hospital I think I'd just keep walking rather than go through this, then wait for a tram (which is like a lottery, the way tram operations are turning out in Sydney). You'd probably get to the hospital quicker on foot.
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lunchbox
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by lunchbox »

grog, ^^^^^, (Mon. May 25) can you direct us to any OFFICIAL statement which comits to an alternative to all Metro passengers having to enter / exit onto Hawkesbury Road?

grog
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by grog »

Sure.

Chapter 7 of the EIS has some information on Westmead on page 7-4 and 7-5, showing the diversion of Alexandria Avenue to align with Grand Avenue and an integrated interchange precinct in figure 7-3. It also included the following text under the Westmead section:
Facilitate an integrated transport hub with direct interchange between Sydney Metro and Sydney Trains services and safe, equitable and legible connections with active transport, buses and the future Parramatta Light Rail
Regarding Olympic Park event crowds, it includes the following text on page 7-7:
Event considerations
As set out in the place and design principles, Sydney Olympic Park metro station would be designed with flexibility to accommodate major events and periodic large crowds. The metro would work with the existing T7 Olympic Park line on the suburban rail network to cater for events.
This design of Sydney Olympic Park metro station would include strategies to separate event and non‐event customer flows, to enable operational efficiency to be achieved during major events. This would include the following:
• In addition to day‐to‐day entries, the station would include separate event mode entries, to separate customer flows. Dedicated vertical transport (lifts and escalators) could also be provided for event and non‐ event customers
• Adequate space would be provided both at grade in the precinct and in the station for crowd marshalling – including space for event customers to queue at grade and an internal station configuration which caters for crowds
• Extended dwell times (the time a train needs to stop in a station for customers to board and alight) at Sydney Olympic Park metro station could be considered in planning for ‘event mode’ operations of Sydney Metro West. This would need to be balanced with the efficient operation of the line
• Sydney Metro would work with Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, and Transport for NSW to deliver clear wayfinding to different transport nodes in the precinct.
Chapter 7: https://majorprojects.planningportal.ns ... .595%20GMT

Chapter 9 also provides more detail on the road diversion at Westmead on page 9-16, figure 9-13: https://majorprojects.planningportal.ns ... .057%20GMT

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tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by tonyp »

grog wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:54 am

Chapter 9 also provides more detail on the road diversion at Westmead on page 9-16, figure 9-13: https://majorprojects.planningportal.ns ... .057%20GMT
Looking at that, it would be even better if the tram terminus were pulled into the plaza between the two stations (Alexandria Ave).
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grog
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by grog »

I wouldn’t expect a plaza, I’d expect a single integrated station. Where Alexandria Avenue is would most likely be part of the concourse and station building, and given they say integrated station development is possible maybe even an over station building.

It would be better to pedestrianise Railway Parade, and extend the light rail so the stop is on Hawkesbury Rd, on a bridge over the rail line. That would put it right outside the new metro entrance.

lunchbox
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by lunchbox »

Thanks grog^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by tonyp »

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superbossgc
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by superbossgc »

Video makers fail, look at the railcar underground its different way.
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Transtopic
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Post by Transtopic »

superbossgc wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:08 am
Video makers fail, look at the railcar underground its different way.
It's not the first time. Do those supposedly in charge have any idea of what they're doing?

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