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Sydney Metro West announced

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby neilrex » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:50 pm

moa999 wrote:With the stops as proposed it will undoubtedly be far quicker Parramatta to the CBD .


Plenty of scope for doubt there, I would think.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Rails » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:24 pm

bambul wrote:The shorter distance cuts out about 2-3km between Parramatta and Town Hall (assuming that's where the new line enters the CBD) plus the shorter dwell times from single deck could mean a 5-10 minute faster journey than would currently be possible (depending on the number of stations). All else equal.


It will be interesting how it all ends up, not enough information yet to know. If my memory doesn't fail me, even with 11 stops the previous West Metro via Central claimed to be only 3 mins slower than the current DD Western line but as you say, this line will have a shorter entry path to the CBD from what we can see so far. Dwell time savings will be interesting too, probably not as important for a line with only two intermediate stops if it had 4-7 it could be a decent saving.

From memory the fastest the Suburbans run between Parramatta and Central is 26 minutes with stops at Lidcombe, Strathfield and Redfern. The Intercity 24 mins with only a stop at Strathfield although there may be select services I've missed that run faster. I believe if they built the WEX/ CBD Relief line which didn't stop at Strathfield and avoided the Illawarra Junction they could get it down to 20 minutes into Central.

Even using normal SD stock as chosen for the C&SW Metro I would imagine with say 5 Intermediate stops the West Metro could still match that. If it picks up all the passengers from Parramatta and Westmead it would make a dent in congestion on the main line. If it picked up all the stations from Parramatta to Blacktown including Seven Hills that would create huge relief for the existing line as well as allowing all DD services to run express from Blacktown to Parramatta and then express again to Central. That would mean while the travel time for the DD services would be around the same from Parramatta as the Metro all services from beyond Blacktown (to Richmond and Emu Plains) would be faster.

Still, at this point no one knows what will happen yet.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby molybtek » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:28 pm

There used to be a non stop parramatta train but can't remember how long it took, from memory it doesn't feel faster than the ones stopping though.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby swtt » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:18 pm

molybtek wrote:There used to be a non stop parramatta train but can't remember how long it took, from memory it doesn't feel faster than the ones stopping though.


That's because it catches up to the trains in front by the time it hits Granville!

The Redfern - Parramatta - Blacktown - all to Penrith trains would take 20 min in the pre-2005 TTs. Given the much higher loadings now experienced at Parra heading west in the PM peak, that's now a little unrealistic. 22 min is now what is given.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby simonl » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:26 pm

molybtek wrote:There used to be a non stop parramatta train but can't remember how long it took, from memory it doesn't feel faster than the ones stopping though.

It was 21 minutes Redfern-Parramatta except for the 6:21pm train ex-Wynyard which took another minute because it left off platform 5 and therefore needed traverse more points. It would also catch up to the 6:14pm train which stopped Str/Lid/Gran which thought it would be fun to block both outbound tracks.

The problem with these so called fast trains is that they were exceptionally unreliable and the fattest timetable on the network at the time. The 2005 slow down only cost these trains one minute to 22 minutes e.g. the 7:19am Parramatta departure in the current timetable. In fact, the outbound trains still persist with the 21 minute timings. However, they would get between Redfern and Wynyard in 8 minutes before 2005 and now 10 minutes.

swtt wrote:That's because it catches up to the trains in front by the time it hits Granville!

Fair dinkum, there's 4 tracks all the way to St Mary's!
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Rails » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:56 am

swtt wrote:That's because it catches up to the trains in front by the time it hits Granville!

The Redfern - Parramatta - Blacktown - all to Penrith trains would take 20 min in the pre-2005 TTs. Given the much higher loadings now experienced at Parra heading west in the PM peak, that's now a little unrealistic. 22 min is now what is given.


That's interesting info swtt, 20 mins is pretty decent in my book if it could be done consistently for all services. With all services running to the same pattern and less congestion I cant see why it couldn't. Looking at the trip planner the fastest AM services between Parramatta and Central I can find are 1 min slower than I listed above (25 vs 24 mins) due to stopping at Redfern as well. Would you be able to point me to the 22 min service? Cheers.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby swtt » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:27 pm

Rails wrote:
swtt wrote:That's because it catches up to the trains in front by the time it hits Granville!

The Redfern - Parramatta - Blacktown - all to Penrith trains would take 20 min in the pre-2005 TTs. Given the much higher loadings now experienced at Parra heading west in the PM peak, that's now a little unrealistic. 22 min is now what is given.


That's interesting info swtt, 20 mins is pretty decent in my book if it could be done consistently for all services. With all services running to the same pattern and less congestion I cant see why it couldn't. Looking at the trip planner the fastest AM services between Parramatta and Central I can find are 1 min slower than I listed above (25 vs 24 mins) due to stopping at Redfern as well. Would you be able to point me to the 22 min service? Cheers.



21 min between Redfern and Parra :P I was measuring it from Redfern.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby stajourneyman » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:56 pm

I recall in the 1980s when they used to have REAL express trains in western Sydney.

There were several suburban trains of a morning peak that would start from Emu plains inbound, and after picking up at Mount Druitt, would run express to Redfern!

They went like the wind.

They were generally brand new K sets (insert laughter HERE!).

From memory, the trip time from Mount Druitt was around 34 -35 minutes.

One of the suburban trains even had a name in the timetable.

It was known as The Heron, and departed Mount Druitt at 0744 each morning.

Again, from memory, it followed The Fish and The Chips that were both interurbans out of the mountains and ran about 10 minutes apart.

You wouldn't want to have been standing on the tracks with these units approaching!

Only downside to The Heron for boarders at Mount Druitt was that you either got a seat for the whole trip or stood for the whole trip!

Fog now clearing ...... there were two other Mount Druitt expresses inbound ...at 0650 and 0710.

There were also identical reverse trips each afternoon....times forgotten.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Glen » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:28 pm

You prompted me to look at some old TT's.

In 1984, The Heron was given 41 minutes Up, Mt Druitt - Redfern with 1 intermediate stop and 39 minutes Down, Redfern - Mt Druitt with 1 intermediate stop.

In 1973, The Heron was given 43 minutes Up, Mt Druitt - Redfern with 4 intermediate stops and 40 minutes Down, Redfern - Mt Druitt with 3 intermediate stops.

The 1973 running times would actually have required faster average speeds between stations given the extra stops, especially on fast sections of the line around Blacktown.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby stajourneyman » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:52 pm

Yep, but I think it was around 1986 that they dropped the intermediate stops out and made them non-stop.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby simonl » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:00 pm

I remember there was a service in the the early noughties/late 90s which ran Redfern-Parra-Mt Druitt. Not sure of the timings of that one though. I can't see how a stop at Parramatta could add negative value to any service passing it other than freight.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby eddy » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:36 pm

simonl wrote:I remember there was a service in the the early noughties/late 90s which ran Redfern-Parra-Mt Druitt. Not sure of the timings of that one though. I can't see how a stop at Parramatta could add negative value to any service passing it other than freight.

But they said there was going to be a new metro station built somewhere at Parramatta so it would not have anything to do with freight.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Glen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:57 pm

I think what simonl means is that because Parramatta is a on a tight curve on the existing line you don't lose as much time stopping an express train there as you would on a fast section of line, plus of course it is a major regional centre too.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby simonl » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:07 pm

Really just the latter point.

The freight comment was just to prevent a nit pick.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:27 pm

The recent Western Sydney Rail Needs Scoping Study proposed several options to connect Parramatta/Westmead with the Sydney CBD. Option A for a new western metro-style service, based on the West Metro but with a deviation via the Bays Precinct, was proposed as an all-stops service with stations every few kilometres. The original West Metro from Westmead to Central had 11 stations located at Westmead, Parramatta, Camellia, Silverwater, Sydney Olympic Park, Strathfield, Burwood, Five Dock, Leichhardt, Camperdown and Broadway/Sydney University, linking up at Central with the ill-fated CBD to Rozelle Metro as a Stage 1 extension. Its projected travel time from Parramatta to Central (all-stops) was 24 mins, 2 mins faster than the then fastest CityRail service and 30 mins to Wynyard, 7 mins faster. The metro trains were to have a maximum service speed of 100 km/h.

Assuming a similar alignment for the latest proposal from Parramatta/Westmead to Five Dock was adopted it would have to deviate from Five Dock via Lilyfield to White Bay and then likely follow the original North West Metro alignment to Pyrmont, Wynyard (Margaret St), Martin Place and St James from where it could potentially be extended to the south-east via Oxford St and Taylor Square. As the current CBD metro proposal has now taken over the Martin Place Station site, the alignment of a West Metro would have to be moved slightly north to a new station site before swinging to the south towards St James, roughly following the alignment of Phillip St. The scoping study estimated a travel time (all-stops) from Parramatta to Wynyard of around 30 mins.

As part of a direct rail express service from Western Sydney Airport to the Sydney CBD via Parramatta, Option 5 proposed a high speed rail service with an estimated travel time from Parramatta to Wynyard of 12 mins based on a maximum speed of 160 km/h. This is the most expensive option with a suggested price tag of $25 billion for the full length of the line. No indication is given of whether this would be a metro or conventional rolling stock. Because of the high cost and the fact that it services few stations, it doesn't appear likely that this option would be adopted.

Option E proposed a new higher speed tunnel from Parramatta to Sydney as part of the existing Sydney Trains network with intermediate stations which could include Sydney Olympic Park and the Bays Precinct. This would cater for express services from the Blue Mountains and Western Sydney and potentially a rail connection from Western Sydney Airport to the Western Line (Option 4), significantly boosting the capacity of the Western and Richmond Lines through the inner city. The estimated travel time from Parramatta to Wynyard is 15 mins, assuming it runs via the Bays Precinct. That's only 3 mins slower than the high speed direct rail express service from Western Sydney Airport (Option 5). Even on the existing Western Main, they should be able to reduce the travel time from Parramatta to Central to 20 mins with one stop at Strathfield, considering the improvements to the track infrastructure over the past couple of decades. The advantage with option E is that being part of the existing network there would be no change of trains necessary at Parramatta for a faster journey time to Sydney.

However, I favour Option A (all-stations Sydney Metro West) for the route via Sydney Olympic Park and the Bays Precinct and Option E (higher speed tunnel), but with a straighter alignment roughly paralleling Parramatta Rd to Strathfield, the existing Western Line to Summer Hill and Parramatta Rd/Broadway to Central. It could potentially connect with a City Relief Line to Barangaroo. A connection from the South Line at Granville for express services might also be an option. I would only have one intermediate station at Strathfield.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby mandonov » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:53 am

I agree that both an express tunnel AND a metro are needed on this corridor. It's just a matter of which is a higher priority for the 2020's, and which one can wait.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby GazzaOak » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:31 am

mandonov wrote:I agree that both an express tunnel AND a metro are needed on this corridor. It's just a matter of which is a higher priority for the 2020's, and which one can wait.


I think the metro is more needed, so we can get rid of that stupid spur line at Olympic Park, and also the fact that that these areas along the metro route will grow quite a bit, so its will get bang for bucks. Also a good to deviate it from 5 dock and go though Pyrmont and the Bays Area, rather than Camperdown/Broadway.

They could just build 4 tunnels in one go, have 2 tracks for metro and another 2 for faster trains (doesn't have be open at the same time, but just build the shell then once funds are available start building tracks), but its using the same alignment (faster trains will only stop off in major stations, metro will stop at every stop).

The express line from parramatta should be used to divert at least 60%-70% of trains off the western/richmond line (as well as some blue mountains trains), and therefor more south and northern lines services can use the suburban tracks, and maybe eventually the all stopper line (inner city line) can be turned into a metro in its own right since the south line will be fully using the suburban tracks alongside with northern line.
Last edited by GazzaOak on Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby rogf24 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:06 am

If anyone wants to have a look at an old Timetable, I'll just leave this link here, it's a bit rough but it's useable.

Bookmark if for future reference if you need to.

https://web.archive.org/web/20001110141 ... /index.htm
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby eddy » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:56 pm

Glen wrote:I think what simonl means is that because Parramatta is a on a tight curve on the existing line you don't lose as much time stopping an express train there as you would on a fast section of line, plus of course it is a major regional centre too.


But I thought they were going to do a tunnel to a new station somewhere?
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:11 pm

mandonov wrote:I agree that both an express tunnel AND a metro are needed on this corridor. It's just a matter of which is a higher priority for the 2020's, and which one can wait.

I'd regard the express tunnel as a longer term project, so the metro should come first. However, the first priority, and a more immediate one, should be to upgrade the existing Western Main and Suburban tracks to ATO to increase the track capacity on each to at least 24tph as well as increasing the line speed. This would serve as an interim measure until an express tunnel is required. I would prefer that the alignment of the express tunnel should roughly parallel the existing Western Line corridor to Central so that it could potentially connect with a future City Relief Line. Bear in mind that the tunnel could also be catering for Blue Mountains Intercity services terminating at Central, which would require a spur to the terminal platforms.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:20 pm

eddy wrote:But I thought they were going to do a tunnel to a new station somewhere?

The Parramatta station site for the West Metro proposal was to be under Civic Place between Darcy St and Macquarie St. From memory I think that the station for the Parramatta to Epping Rail Link was to be under the existing station.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Tonymercury » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:39 am

Transtopic wrote: From memory I think that the station for the Parramatta to Epping Rail Link was to be under the existing station.


Passing directly under the former ticket office.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby lunchbox » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:22 am

....and all the minutes saved by having faster trains from the west to the CBD will be lost in interchanging between the Metro lines, because Transport for NSW will have failed to provide efficient (read "cross-platform") transfer between the lines. It's not too late to do it NOW!
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Rails » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:32 am

Transtopic wrote:
However, I favour Option A (all-stations Sydney Metro West) for the route via Sydney Olympic Park and the Bays Precinct and Option E (higher speed tunnel), but with a straighter alignment roughly paralleling Parramatta Rd to Strathfield, the existing Western Line to Summer Hill and Parramatta Rd/Broadway to Central. It could potentially connect with a City Relief Line to Barangaroo. A connection from the South Line at Granville for express services might also be an option. I would only have one intermediate station at Strathfield.



I favour this option too (as anyone who has paid any attention to my posts for the last few years might know :lol: ) however I think if you are going to the effort the tunnel should run from Parramatta to Central and not take over the existing line as some of the media reports showed was under consideration. I don't think that would preclude it from joining a future CBD relief line. In fact it would assist with the issues they had with the original WEX/CBD Relief project. Keeping it separate makes it more viable I think.

Also didn't they say shortly after the announcement of the original NW Metro back in 08 that they found that they could not utilise St James station as intended?
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby neilrex » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:04 pm

Trains are no good to the proposed areas of development and redevelopment, unless they actually stop there.
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