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Sydney Metro West announced

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby mandonov » Fri May 25, 2018 1:16 pm

From SkyscraperCity:

strata wrote:And while we're on the subject of the alignment, I quickly mapped out the locations of the geotechnical investigations:

Image

A new one was also added at Macquarie Lane in Parramatta.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby mandonov » Thu May 31, 2018 6:27 pm

Investigations have now sprung up at:
Horwood Place, Parramatta https://www.sydneymetro.info/file/16486 ... =0NXfXrez; and...
Defries Ave, Zetland https://www.sydneymetro.info/file/16631 ... n=s863Pvbs.

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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby tonyp » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:09 pm

Looks like there won't be many stops:

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaki ... b1a37ed65f
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby eddy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:50 am

tonyp wrote:Looks like there won't be many stops:

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaki ... b1a37ed65f


If the metro west has just one intermediate launch site/stop then it can easily be done for $3b in competent rock allowing a 12 minute trip and surface rail to be all stops serviced by numerous buses between the existing stations and ferry stops.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby J_Busworth » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:43 pm

Federal Labor pledging $3 Billion for the project if they win the next election.

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaki ... 46eb36833b
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:29 pm

J_Busworth wrote:Federal Labor pledging $3 Billion for the project if they win the next election.

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaki ... 46eb36833b

On another news thread, it was reported that a Federal Labor Government would prioritise an extension of the South West Rail Link to the new airport, rather than the link to St Marys. This is a far more sensible option IMO.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby rogf24 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:42 pm

Transtopic wrote:
J_Busworth wrote:Federal Labor pledging $3 Billion for the project if they win the next election.

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaki ... 46eb36833b

On another news thread, it was reported that a Federal Labor Government would prioritise an extension of the South West Rail Link to the new airport, rather than the link to St Marys. This is a far more sensible option IMO.


They didn't.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-01/a ... ey/9928922

Mr Shorten also said a federal Labor government would spend another $3 billion on the western Sydney rail line to Badgerys Creek airport, boosting its previous commitment of $400 million.

He said it would include a new connection from MacArthur to St Marys and a new line from St Marys to the Sydney Metro at Rouse Hill.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:13 am

rogf24 wrote:
Transtopic wrote:On another news thread, it was reported that a Federal Labor Government would prioritise an extension of the South West Rail Link to the new airport, rather than the link to St Marys. This is a far more sensible option IMO.


They didn't.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-01/a ... ey/9928922

Mr Shorten also said a federal Labor government would spend another $3 billion on the western Sydney rail line to Badgerys Creek airport, boosting its previous commitment of $400 million.

He said it would include a new connection from MacArthur to St Marys and a new line from St Marys to the Sydney Metro at Rouse Hill.


According to News Ltd, he promised to fund an extension of the South West Rail Link to Badgerys Creek Airport via Bringelly as well as the Macarthur to St Marys and Rouse Hill Link. This is in addition to the Metro West. I wasn't suggesting that the commitment to the extension of the SWRL would replace the Macarthur to Rouse Hill Link.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby rogf24 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:36 pm

Transtopic wrote:According to News Ltd, he promised to fund an extension of the South West Rail Link to Badgerys Creek Airport via Bringelly as well as the Macarthur to St Marys and Rouse Hill Link. This is in addition to the Metro West. I wasn't suggesting that the commitment to the extension of the SWRL would replace the Macarthur to Rouse Hill Link.


The government's plan is ultimately for an extension of the Metro West to the airport if people want to get to the city or Parramatta in the distant-ish future.

If the government is sticking with this plan, I would still like to see the SWRL extended to the airport temporarily so people can get to Parramatta via the T5 and city via an interchange at Glenfield (although it's better to just fly to KSA for the city). Once the Metro West extension is ready, they can cut back the SWRL to the aerotropolis and let the metro take over.
Last edited by rogf24 on Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:18 pm

rogf24 wrote:The government's plan is ultimately for an extension of the Metro West to the airport if people want to get to the city or Parramatta in the distant-ish future.

If the government is sticking with this plan, I would still like to see the SWRL extended to the airport temporarily so people can get to Parramatta via the T5 and city via an interchange at Glenfield (although it's better to just fly to KSA for the city). Once the Metro West extension is ready, they can cut back the SWRL to the aerotropolis and let the metro take over.

My preference would be to construct an extension of the SWRL to St Marys via the new airport as part of the Sydney Trains network. The current proposal to only extend the SWRL to the Aerotropolis short of the airport is absurd. Not only will it provide a reasonably direct fast route from the airport to the Sydney CBD via the East Hills Line express tracks much sooner, it will also provide a continuous loop in conjunction with the Cumberland Line servicing St Marys, Blacktown, Parramatta and Liverpool. The proposed line from Macarthur to the airport should also be part of the Sydney Trains network linking with the SWRL extension to St Marys. The future extension from St Marys to the Metro Northwest at Rouse Hill via Schofields could be metro, but that would be a long way off, as would any more direct rail link to Parramatta.

It's not a foregone conclusion that a future metro line from the airport to Parramatta will link in with Metro West. Although that's the current thinking, things can change, as we've already seen with the current metro plans. There could be multiple changes of government at both the State and Federal levels over the next couple of decades and anything is possible. Nothing's set in concrete.

If the Metro West becomes a slower all stops service, which is looking increasingly likely, then I don't see the point of linking it with a future metro from Parramatta to the airport. It would be more sensible to link an airport line with a future express tunnel from Parramatta to the Sydney CBD as part of the Sydney Trains network, which would also provide additional track capacity for express Outer Western Line services. By the time it was built, Sydney Trains will probably be converted to ATO anyway, improving its operational efficiency. It doesn't preclude operating compatible SD trains which are more user friendly for airport passengers. Let the metro system do what it does best, ie, service high density inner urban regions with multiple stations along its routes.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:40 pm

Transtopic wrote: a reasonably direct fast route from the airport to the Sydney CBD via the East Hills Line express tracks ...... Let the metro system do what it does best,

There's no such thing as a fast route on a Sydney Trains service, even if the the track is Nullabor Plain-straight, I've checked the times all over the system against similar stretches on the metro and in Perth and I've checked them historically too. Yes indeed, let the metro system do what it does best - higher average speeds and greater capacity, regardless of where in the metropolis. ;)

Transtopic wrote: ie, service high density inner urban regions with multiple stations along its routes.

I wish everybody including the government would stop calling it a metro - it's a blend of two operating methodolgies, like Perth. We don't have to pigeonhole everything in the transport textbook nor do we have to deny the blending and evolution of traditional concepts.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby rogf24 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:19 pm

Transtopic wrote:a reasonably direct fast route from the airport to the Sydney CBD via the East Hills Line express tracks much sooner


The primary goal of the new airport ultimately isn't to get people to the CBD or the eastern side of Sydney. This is an airport for Western Sydney. It'll be far easier to land at KSA if you want to go to the city or the eastern side of Sydney and there's room for growth at KSA, the owners recently announced a fourth terminal. So the primary transport focus for Badgery's Creek should be getting to GPOP and yeah the aerotropolis.

The other problem with this is that it breaks the separation of lines, they just separated the T2 and T8 branches in the last timetable so I don't think they're in a mood to tangle it up again.

Transtopic wrote:It would be more sensible to link an airport line with a future express tunnel from Parramatta to the Sydney CBD as part of the Sydney Trains network, which would also provide additional track capacity for express Outer Western Line services.


Definitely, but that's not the plan, my original comment was based on sticking to the plan.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby boronia » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:00 pm

It is too early to predict what the flying patterns for BCA and KSA are likely to be, but there is certain to be some need for transfers between the two. "Western Sydney" will include the Liverpool-Campbelltown corridor which would benefit from a direct link from BC.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Frosty » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:05 pm

rogf24 wrote:
The other problem with this is that it breaks the separation of lines, they just separated the T2 and T8 branches in the last timetable so I don't think they're in a mood to tangle it up again.


Glenfield and the SWRL does have flying junctions so it wouldn't be difficult to swap things send to T2 towards Campbelltown & T8 onto Lepppington.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby rogf24 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:12 pm

The Campbelltown direction will always be busier though so you'll want the T8 on it. And the Faster Rail to Canberra proposal will also share tracks with the T8 so you can't really send T8 trains to Leppington if you want to keep the separation.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:41 pm

tonyp wrote:
Transtopic wrote: a reasonably direct fast route from the airport to the Sydney CBD via the East Hills Line express tracks ...... Let the metro system do what it does best,

There's no such thing as a fast route on a Sydney Trains service, even if the the track is Nullabor Plain-straight, I've checked the times all over the system against similar stretches on the metro and in Perth and I've checked them historically too. Yes indeed, let the metro system do what it does best - higher average speeds and greater capacity, regardless of where in the metropolis. ;)

Transtopic wrote: ie, service high density inner urban regions with multiple stations along its routes.

I wish everybody including the government would stop calling it a metro - it's a blend of two operating methodolgies, like Perth. We don't have to pigeonhole everything in the transport textbook nor do we have to deny the blending and evolution of traditional concepts.

With respect tonyp, do you seriously think a metro link from BC airport to St Marys, then interchanging to Sydney Trains to continue a journey to the Sydney CBD, would be faster than a more direct link via an extended SWRL and East Hills Line, even with its current underwhelming speed limits ? Pull the other leg. A more direct rail link to Parramatta, whether it be Sydney Trains or an extension of the Metro West is decades away, if ever. You and I both know that the existing network infrastructure is capable of supporting much higher average speeds. It's only the failure of the bureaucrats and politicians to implement this strategy that is holding it back. You shouldn't assume that this will never change, particularly with a change in government or the pending introduction of ATO. As for your response to my comment with regard to "let the metro system do what it does best", you've conveniently failed to acknowledge that a high capacity metro is not appropriate in low density areas, which the Badgerys Creek region will be despite all the hype.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby tonyp » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:53 pm

Transtopic wrote:you've conveniently failed to acknowledge that a high capacity metro is not appropriate in low density areas, which the Badgerys Creek region will be despite all the hype.

There's a lot of open countryside along the Mandurah line - effectively the same type of train service as the NWRL. Neither service fits into that little box of categories.

Yes I agree that better performance should in principle be obtainable out of Sydney Trains. I've just ceased to live in hope, that's all. Plus those two doors per side per car will always be an anchor as long as they're like that.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:20 pm

rogf24 wrote:
Transtopic wrote:a reasonably direct fast route from the airport to the Sydney CBD via the East Hills Line express tracks much sooner


The primary goal of the new airport ultimately isn't to get people to the CBD or the eastern side of Sydney. This is an airport for Western Sydney. It'll be far easier to land at KSA if you want to go to the city or the eastern side of Sydney and there's room for growth at KSA, the owners recently announced a fourth terminal. So the primary transport focus for Badgery's Creek should be getting to GPOP and yeah the aerotropolis.

The other problem with this is that it breaks the separation of lines, they just separated the T2 and T8 branches in the last timetable so I don't think they're in a mood to tangle it up again.

I've already voiced my opinion on another thread that it's a load of crap that the new airport will be primarily servicing travellers from Western Sydney. It's all very well to say that those bound for Eastern Sydney should fly into KSA, but in the real world that's not just going to happen. There will be intense competition between Badgerys Creek Airport and KSA, with BC likely to become a hub for low cost airlines as well as offering curfew free travel options. The majority of Interstate and International tourists, which are the other half of the equation, will most likely be bound to and from Eastern Sydney destinations, including the Sydney CBD, and a fast express rail service will be required sooner rather than later. It's not just about Western Sydney travellers.

I acknowledge that a fast express service from BC to the Sydney CBD via the East Hills Line compromises the separation of T2,T5 and T8, but it's something that needs to be done. In fact, I would go further and propose that the SWRL becomes a branch of T8, including its T5 Cumberland Line designation, with T2 terminating at Glenfield.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:38 pm

Frosty wrote:
rogf24 wrote:
The other problem with this is that it breaks the separation of lines, they just separated the T2 and T8 branches in the last timetable so I don't think they're in a mood to tangle it up again.


Glenfield and the SWRL does have flying junctions so it wouldn't be difficult to swap things send to T2 towards Campbelltown & T8 onto Lepppington.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby rogf24 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:31 am

I have to say, I'm really doubtful of the need for a fast train from the western airport to the city, though it will be nice to have. As I said, most people travelling to the city or the eastern part of the city will fly from or land at KSA. Especially if people are in a rush, in which case will mostly affect business travellers.

The only people from the east who are likely to use the western Sydney airport are leisure travellers, in which case they probably won't care about a fast train. And even then, it is likely they will fly from or land at KSA, it's closer and even if the fares are slightly higher, these people can afford it.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Rails » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:03 am

rogf24 wrote:I have to say, I'm really doubtful of the need for a fast train from the western airport to the city, though it will be nice to have. As I said, most people travelling to the city or the eastern part of the city will fly from or land at KSA. Especially if people are in a rush, in which case will mostly affect business travellers.

The only people from the east who are likely to use the western Sydney airport are leisure travellers, in which case they probably won't care about a fast train. And even then, it is likely they will fly from or land at KSA, it's closer and even if the fares are slightly higher, these people can afford it.


I agree there seems to be a lot of focus on linking Badgerys Creek Airport to the Sydney CBD and KSA by some but I don't think its a priority. I'm sure there will be some travellers who want to go from Badgerys to KSA but really would you make changes to busy lines like T8 just so those passengers don't have to change trains and save a few mins? I wouldn't. What's most important is to connect Badgerys to Parramatta and other Western Centres like Blacktown, Penrith, Liverpool and Campbelltown. I also think people miss the importance of linking smaller western Sydney stations to the new Airport and its employment surrounds. Again more important than a direct link from Badgerys to KSA.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby lunchbox » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:38 pm

On the subject of travel times, a letter in today's (3.7.18) Sydney Morning Herald suggests it's not too late to save hours of accumulated travel time by providing cross-platform interchange between the two metro lines at Central.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby rogf24 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:01 pm

lunchbox wrote:On the subject of travel times, a letter in today's (3.7.18) Sydney Morning Herald suggests it's not too late to save hours of accumulated travel time by providing cross-platform interchange between the two metro lines at Central.

Personal preference will be a paired cross-platform interchange at Martin Place and Pitt St, like in Singapore at Raffles Place and City Hall or Hong Kong at Prince Edward and Mong Kok.
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Transtopic » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:14 pm

rogf24 wrote:I have to say, I'm really doubtful of the need for a fast train from the western airport to the city, though it will be nice to have. As I said, most people travelling to the city or the eastern part of the city will fly from or land at KSA. Especially if people are in a rush, in which case will mostly affect business travellers.

The only people from the east who are likely to use the western Sydney airport are leisure travellers, in which case they probably won't care about a fast train. And even then, it is likely they will fly from or land at KSA, it's closer and even if the fares are slightly higher, these people can afford it.

Even if there's no demand for a fast rail link from BC to the Sydney CBD via the SWRL, not that I agree, as I mentioned an extension to St Marys via the airport would create a continuous loop with the Cumberland Line servicing most of the major Western Sydney strategic centres. Why this obsession with having a metro in outer Sydney, when it compromises other potential rail services?
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Re: Sydney Metro West announced

Postby Frosty » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:30 pm

I like the idea in theory of having a link to WSA via SWRL but that would probably require quadruplication between Revesby & Glenfield. The Airport Line already struggles to cope in particular between Wolli Ck & Central airport travellers take up a lot of space with their luggage doesn't help Green Sq & Mascot have increasing patronage. Imagine more airport travellers on the Airport Line you would need dedicated special express airport trains similar to Gatwick or Heathrow Express.
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