Parramatta light rail

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simonl
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by simonl »

Daniel wrote:I guess I'm thinking more longer term. How much longer will the Racecourse and associated facilities be around for until they too form a redevelopment site?
I expect a long time. What was the last time a racecourse was redeveloped in Australia or anywhere in the Western world? Doomben and Eagle Farm are spitting distance from each other and neither is redeveloped.
boronia wrote:Is there really a need for heavy rail to the racecourse?

Randwick copes OK without one
Wasn't it part of the justification for the tram, ok a minor part, but I wouldn't say that Randwick copes as well without it.

The other point is that the road network makes it pretty *king difficult to get from Rosehill racecourse's main gate. That's why the main car park is on the other side of the railway line. I suppose you could argue that you can get from Parramatta to a James Ruse Dr (southbound) drop off without too much difficulty. It's going away from the event which is far more difficult on top of that direction being more peaky. You wouldn't want to make the pedestrians cross James Ruse Dr, which leaves a triple lane change to turn right at Prospect St, continuing to Parramatta Rd or converting a significant portion of the car park to a bus interchange. Good luck with getting people to accept any of those options.
tonyp wrote:Am I the Minister for Transport now? :shock:
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by Daniel »

simonl wrote:What was the last time a racecourse was redeveloped in Australia or anywhere in the Western world?
Mirvac's redevelopment of Harold Park in Glebe is nearing completion.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by simonl »

Ok, but that was harness racing. Got an example of a horse (with jockey) racecourse?
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by tonyp »

Daniel wrote:
simonl wrote:What was the last time a racecourse was redeveloped in Australia or anywhere in the Western world?
Mirvac's redevelopment of Harold Park in Glebe is nearing completion.
Well-fielded touche Daniel :lol:

Years ago the Parramatta stadium should have been built at Clyde instead of Parramatta Park, that would have made two venues there to sustain a rail link. Anyway that's water under the bridge.

Trams used to do a heavy lift at Randwick probably even greater than heavy rail manages today (let alone buses) but I doubt they could replicate that class act now.

Another option is to do the Carlingford line as light rail turning west to Parramatta at Camelia, but retaining the track to Clyde (energised only when in use) for special events, but that sort of scenario seems hard to justify with the accountants nowadays. Camellia itself is not such a tough walk from Rosehill if there is a pedestrian bridge. Then people could come by tram from an interchange at Parramatta station.

Like Randwick and Moore Park, all this depends on crowds not being as overwhelming as in the good old days. Nowadays in Australia they've lost the skill of heavy lifting by any mode unless it's a special effort like the Olympic Games. Build plenty of carparks as a backup seems to be the copout solution nowadays.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by boronia »

Daniel wrote:
simonl wrote:What was the last time a racecourse was redeveloped in Australia or anywhere in the Western world?
Mirvac's redevelopment of Harold Park in Glebe is nearing completion.
Hasn't there been talk of closing Canterbury?
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by captainch »

there doing up Randwick racecourse with a big international hotel units & it must happen warick farm racecourse become housing or industrial units! its hardly used and Canterbury is sitting in prime unit space and wentworth park would bring a gold mine for units,leaving Randwick & rosehill how many racecourses do we realy need when you can watch it anywere on your phone! our local race course is used each week end as markets and concerts & for conferences & weddings! most week ends as well!
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by boronia »

IIRC parts of Warwick Farm are on a flood plain, which might hinder redevelopment.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by Mr OC Benz »

simonl wrote:Ok, but that was harness racing. Got an example of a horse (with jockey) racecourse?
Not a Sydney example, but you wanted an Australian one. Perth Racing/WA Turf Club sold a lot of land surrounding their Belmont Park racecourse to support redevelopment and continuity of the racecourse. This land is prime located near the new stadium, Swan River, Crown Casino and entertainment precinct, rail line and will see large scale redevelopment commence in the next few years of both the racecourse and the surrounding land for high density mixed use purposes. There was talk of if Belmont Park was redeveloped, that their other racecourse at Ascot could be closed entirely and redeveloped, but that isn't proving too popular so far.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by simonl »

BTW, Looks like the report from PCC is still downloadable here: http://www.architectureanddesign.com.au ... art_2.aspx

EDIT: The other point I'll make is that using the County Rd reservation (finally found it) would mean reaching Macquarie Park east of the University. A pretty undesirable feature.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by mandonov »

Rosehill already have plans for a couple of towers and a function centre to capitalise on Camelia redevelopment. It's not going anywhere.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by rogf24 »

simonl wrote:BTW, Looks like the report from PCC is still downloadable here: http://www.architectureanddesign.com.au ... art_2.aspx

EDIT: The other point I'll make is that using the County Rd reservation (finally found it) would mean reaching Macquarie Park east of the University. A pretty undesirable feature.
Why is reaching the university at the shopping centre undesirable? If anything, it helps avoid the massive traffic jam every peak hour at the university which is not being adequately addressed by the university. Yes, the university recently realigned their roads within the campus putting pressure on University Avenue. There are now less lanes overall and no new bus lanes to encourage PT usage. If they can't provide good transport now, I find it hard for them to get on board light rail through the middle of the campus.

A light rail will also be best off running through Macquarie Drive within the campus, the university just closed that as part of the road realignment with the intention to "pedestrianise" it. I doubt they will open it back up for light rail without getting into a massive hissy fit. Herring Road is also being redeveloped so a provision for light rail, possibly on the existing median between Epping and Waterloo Roads, can be easily provided rather going through the university.

I personally prefer a via Epping route going through the university, yes it will be more expensive and difficult and I think the Epping route will be worth it. But the use of County and Herring Road is hardly an undesirable feature.

It's probably also worth noting that the Olympic Park-Strathfield route has a pretty decent chance at reusing the old Sandown line, I would be surprised if TfNSW is not investigating it.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by Fleet Lists »

The Sandown line seems a bit out of the way for Olympic Park to Strathfield but could be a possibilty for Olympic Park to Parramatta.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by rogf24 »

Sorry, that's what I meant if I confused you, a Parramatta-Olympic Park-Strathfield line to be more exact.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by Transtopic »

rogf24 wrote:There is a large amount of new housing being developed in Carlingford and Epping so I guess to the government it makes more sense to provide access to these areas rather than a new Eastwood alone. There is also some, but not on a very large scale, urban consolidation along the rest of the Carlingford line. Maybe the Carlingford line has potential more people than the Kissing Point Road corridor. The government's public transport and housing strategy seems to be mostly squeezing all they can out of existing infrastructure rather than investing in brand new lines and a Carlingford line conversion seems to able to suit that ticket better than an Eastwood alignment but I'm not exactly sure.
My query is not so much about the relative merits of a route via Eastwood or Carlingford/Epping, but Parramatta Council's last minute change in it's preferred option, contrary to its feasibility study, without any apparent explanation. No further study has been undertaken on its behalf to influence this decision. Sounds like some backroom dealing to me, or perhaps the fact that the Carlingford/Epping route is primarily within its jurisdiction rather than Ryde Council through the Eastwood Town Centre. It appears they have distanced themselves from their original feasibility study, as it is no longer available on their website, seemingly not even acknowledging its existence. They have also been silent on the recommended link to Castle Hill as part of the Macquarie Park link. Seems odd to me. If Parramatta Council wants to take over the western part of Ryde Council, which includes Eastwood, then they're not exactly endearing themselves to Eastwood residents and business community.

On another note, the only other location along the Carlingford Line suitable for urban consolidation is Telopea, which can equally be accommodated on a light rail route via Kissing Point Rd. There has been recent redevelopment of high density apartments along Carlingford Rd, Carlingford (in Hornsby Council's jurisdiction, not Parramatta's), but it pales into insignificance compared with the redevelopment potential of Eastwood. Epping is already undergoing redevelopment as part of a Priority Precinct on the North West Metro and it doesn't need a light rail link to enhance its potential. On the other hand, the redevelopment potential of Eastwood has never been objectively assessed (thanks to the disinterest by Ryde Council which is more focussed on Macquarie Park and Top Ryde). As an example, there are whole blocks of current single lot residential housing along the southern side of the County Rd between Blaxland Rd and Shaftsbury Rd (First Ave and Rutledge St) which are within 800m of the railway station and could be rezoned for high density. It could accommodate hundreds if not thousands of apartments within walking distance of the Town Centre and transport interchange. That doesn't even take into account the redevelopment potential within the Town Centre itself if the same planning controls applicable to Epping were implemented (being a larger retail/commercial centre, you'd think this would be justifiable).

However, a light rail route from Dundas to Macquarie Park via Eastwood doesn't preclude a branch to Carlingford along the rest of the rail corridor. On the evidence available to date, there is no prospect of a light rail route either to or through Epping.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by boronia »

simonl wrote:Ok, but that was harness racing. Got an example of a horse (with jockey) racecourse?
A few years ago now, but Kensington, Rosebery, Victoria Park, Kogarah, Ascot were all conventional racecourses.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by simonl »

rogf24 wrote:Why is reaching the university at the shopping centre undesirable?
The university isn't at the shopping centre. To go via County Rd, you'd touch the shopping centre nearer its eastern side - the 100+ degree turn to the university after that is obviously undesirable.
Transtopic wrote:Parramatta Council's last minute change in it's preferred option
Two words: weak government. Note my Geoff Lee quote upthread. Council's minutes/answer on this point seem to evade or not understand the question.

-
I actually wonder if the PERL could make a miraculous come back, given that Carlingford-Epping would surely need a tunnel. Would also shrink "Sydney Trains", something treasury and Gladys really want to do. Baby steps.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by rogf24 »

simonl wrote:
rogf24 wrote:Why is reaching the university at the shopping centre undesirable?
The university isn't at the shopping centre. To go via County Rd, you'd touch the shopping centre nearer its eastern side - the 100+ degree turn to the university after that is obviously undesirable.
A better word would have been near. The extra walking to university because of the turn direct to Waterloo Road is undesirable but it is doable, the Hillsbus university people already do this, or you can branch.
simonl wrote:I actually wonder if the PERL could make a miraculous come back, given that Carlingford-Epping would surely need a tunnel. Would also shrink "Sydney Trains", something treasury and Gladys really want to do. Baby steps.
A "light metro" maybe. This will be much more preferable to any light rail. Another option and a big speculation here, but maybe TfNSW can find a way to send the Liverpool Metro extension up the Main South Line in the form of a quad to Merrylands and then in a tunnel to Epping via Parramatta. Then Sydney will have an orbital railway! (kindof) The direct South Line city service is retained and there is plenty of room in the corridor for a quad. Not all services will go here, some will terminate at Liverpool. Anyway, this has gone completely off topic.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by Transtopic »

simonl wrote:The other point I'll make is that using the County Rd reservation (finally found it) would mean reaching Macquarie Park east of the University. A pretty undesirable feature.
But it does connect directly with Macquarie University Station and the Macquarie Shopping Centre which is the major transport interchange, so it can't be ignored.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by iamthouth »

simonl wrote:
rogf24 wrote:Why is reaching the university at the shopping centre undesirable?
The university isn't at the shopping centre. To go via County Rd, you'd touch the shopping centre nearer its eastern side - the 100+ degree turn to the university after that is obviously undesirable.
The BRT proposal which came out some years ago using the County Rd reservation had the BRT running across Epping Rd onto Lane Cove Rd and back along Waterloo Rd to the university, thus serving the length of the business park as well.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by Transtopic »

simonl wrote:^ interesting theory. Could just go to a peak only service, would that be any better? A Doo Tram might be an alternative too, but I guess you'd want to keep the ability to run trains to Rosehill on race days. I don't think there is any freight any more and probably not much chance of it coming back.
One of the guiding principles of the recently released Camellia Precinct planning study proposed that the majority of the southern and eastern parts of the precinct be retained for industrial uses including the potential for a new freight line spur from the Carlingford Line, replacing the current Sandown Line, on an alignment south of Rosehill Racecourse. This will be subject to further investigation by TfNSW. There would appear to be little likelihood of passenger services from Clyde just running to the existing Rosehill Station. Any new freight spur probably wouldn't be electrified. Hopefully, if this option is pursued, they will construct a road bridge on Parramatta Rd eliminating the level crossing. This had been proposed decades ago.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by Transtopic »

Fleet Lists wrote:The Sandown line seems a bit out of the way for Olympic Park to Strathfield but could be a possibilty for Olympic Park to Parramatta.
That's the proposal.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by rogf24 »

Indeed, the proposed light rail route does include the Sandown conversion, it also uses the short busway just east of Clyde street. Olympic Park has a pretty extensive but rarely used busway network that can be part of the light rail.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by Transtopic »

simonl wrote:I actually wonder if the PERL could make a miraculous come back, given that Carlingford-Epping would surely need a tunnel. Would also shrink "Sydney Trains", something treasury and Gladys really want to do. Baby steps.
You could be right. This might be the hidden agenda. Once you start talking about a light rail link by tunnelling from Carlingford to Epping, which is the only way it could realistically be achieved, then the economics of constructing a metro becomes more viable, notwithstanding the elimination of the tunnel stubs at Epping. Still, the light rail surface route via Eastwood is far more cost efficient.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by Transtopic »

Forgive me for prattling on, but at this late hour of the night, I'm revved up (with the help of a few scotches).

With recent media speculation suggesting that the Parramatta/Sydney Olympic Park/Strathfield light rail route is the preferred option for the first stage of the Western Sydney Light Rail Network, it is obvious that money talks. Developers along the route have combined to offer part financing of the light rail link, but they have been silent on continuing subsidies which would be required, at least in the short to medium term, to make this a viable operation. It will be some years before the Camellia Precinct is fully developed and no doubt it will warrant a light rail (or even metro) link in the longer term. But not now. The developers effectively want the government to underwrite their early development phase in constructing the light rail link.

The other options, viz, the Macquarie Park (whichever route is chosen) and Castle Hill routes offer immediate viable patronage levels and should take precedence, as Parramatta Council's feasibility study concluded. The Sydney Olympic Park option is not a priority until redevelopment along the corridor increases.
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Re: SMH: Roads Minister Duncan Gay hints @ Olympic Pk light

Post by simonl »

Transtopic wrote:
simonl wrote:The other point I'll make is that using the County Rd reservation (finally found it) would mean reaching Macquarie Park east of the University. A pretty undesirable feature.
But it does connect directly with Macquarie University Station and the Macquarie Shopping Centre which is the major transport interchange, so it can't be ignored.
"Directly" is a bit of a stretch. As I previously stated, you'd need to virtually double back to reach the Uni and even the uni station. Once you do that, you make it pretty unattractive to ever extend the line.
rogf24 wrote:Another option and a big speculation here, but maybe TfNSW can find a way to send the Liverpool Metro extension up the Main South Line in the form of a quad to Merrylands and then in a tunnel to Epping via Parramatta. Then Sydney will have an orbital railway! (kindof)
Foam party!
Transtopic wrote:
simonl wrote:I actually wonder if the PERL could make a miraculous come back, given that Carlingford-Epping would surely need a tunnel. Would also shrink "Sydney Trains", something treasury and Gladys really want to do. Baby steps.
You could be right. This might be the hidden agenda. Once you start talking about a light rail link by tunnelling from Carlingford to Epping, which is the only way it could realistically be achieved, then the economics of constructing a metro becomes more viable, notwithstanding the elimination of the tunnel stubs at Epping. Still, the light rail surface route via Eastwood is far more cost efficient.
I'm suggesting incompetence rather than malice.

The major problem with the idea of metro along the Carlingford line is getting from Rydalmere to Parramatta. I doubt a street running driverless metro would be acceptable.
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