Loftus Tram Museum

[boronia]

If the tram museum has room I sure hope they do accept one of the Variotrams, even if they can't operate it. It is an important part of the history of tram/light rail as it signifies the start of a small resurgence/comeback of street railways. It would be a shame for one of them not to be preserved.

Problem would be that if it can't be operated, something that size becomes a liability.

Perhaps the LR people should keep one as a "heritage car", and it could actually be run occasionally

[tonyp]

It can be used as a bookshop and tearoom at Loftus (it's only a glorified garden shed anyway) and the R presently used restored to service!

[boronia]

Hopefully the YMCA building will eventually become the bookshop and tea shop; that R1 really looks tatty these days, the "kiosk" is even worse.

[matthewg]

A significant number (of admittedly younger) SPER members DO want a Variotram. Yes there are issues to actually operate it (significant power draw, etc) and space problems (Half the collection is stored off site already), etc.

However if one is not preserved IN WORKING ORDER, then one will NEVER be preserved. We only get once shot at this. Expecting that at some point in the future someone will locate the dusty remains of a Vario that's done duty as a shed or something and restore it to working order is just NOT going to happen. SPER and kindred museums are now having significant problems finding the skilled labour to restore old 'low tech' trams. Where are the skills to do body and electronic work on a 'modern' tram going to come from ?

The days of rescuing trams from being chook sheds in backyards is over.

And as for the bookshop tram at Loftus - it will NEVER run again. The museum already has working examples of both R and R1 trams in pre and post war variants. That body is purely 'insurance' against major damage to one of the operating fleet.
That's why the Roselle trams were all sold for 'adaptive reuse'. We don't need any more bodies of that class of tram. It simply wasn't viable to keep the bodies or let alone consider operable restoration.

At some point Loftus is going to have to consider if it's going to lock it self into the 1950s and fade away as those that remember the 'old' sydney trams depart this world, or try to stay relevant as a reference collection of Sydney electric street transport. Only the members can decide that.

Many people talk, few 'put their money where their mouth is'.

[jpp42]

A significant number (of admittedly younger) SPER members DO want a Variotram.

At some point Loftus is going to have to consider if it's going to lock it self into the 1950s and fade away as those that remember the 'old' sydney trams depart this world, or try to stay relevant as a reference collection of Sydney electric street transport. Only the members can decide that.

Many people talk, few 'put their money where their mouth is'.

There is definitely a problem in the heritage preservation world that many people only consider something heritage if it was present when they were growing up. If it came later than that, it cannot be considered heritage - despite its relevance to future generations. Never mind the fact that the population of today grew up with Variotrams - if those younger people aren't on the museum board and making decisions, it may never happen.

This is why so many Art Deco buildings were lost in the urban renewal movement of the 1960s and 70s... it was too "young" to be considered heritage. The Brutalist archiceture of the 70s and 80s will probably similarly be lost if important examples aren't preserved. People need to take a longer term view on these things.

I am happy that SETS is there to preserve the "Silver" electric train sets, and hope they eventually preserve a V-set when the time comes (I understand this is in the works). The Sydney Tramway Museum (what does SPER refer to?) needs to make the right decision here regarding the Variotrams, but they should also apply for appropriate funding from TfNSW / Transport Heritage NSW to make it happen.

[boronia]

And as for the bookshop tram at Loftus - it will NEVER run again. The museum already has working examples of both R and R1 trams in pre and post war variants. That body is purely 'insurance' against major damage to one of the operating fleet.
That's why the Roselle trams were all sold for 'adaptive reuse'. We don't need any more bodies of that class of tram. It simply wasn't viable to keep the bodies or let alone consider operable restoration.

This tram is the only survivor of the 5 prototype R1s which were built to R type specifications. From a public perception there would not be much difference to a production R1, so maybe its has a low heritage value. I don't know how the Museum rates it.

[matthewg]

This tram is the only survivor of the 5 prototype R1s which were built to R type specifications. From a public perception there would not be much difference to a production R1, so maybe its has a low heritage value. I don't know how the Museum rates it.

But the original running gear is long gone, so the specialness is long lost. It's just an R1 body sitting on blocks.

Personally i'm not for preserving all the experimental one offs and small run variations unless they heralded a major step change in technology like M&MTB PCC No 1041 did for Melbourne. Keeping every variation might be a nice dream, but back in the real world.....

[Bedford-29]

If they could keep a Variotram and convert it to 600 volts at the tram museum they might beable use it on the National park run.But in this day and age a Variotram with 750 volt power rating could be tweak it to run on 600 volts.I know from watching you tube and going off topic but there are small electric railways running 600 volts in Japan that acquire second electric railway rollingstock that use 1500 volts and tweak it back to run on 600 volt power.

[matthewg]

If they could keep a Variotram and convert it to 600 volts at the tram museum they might beable use it on the National park run.

The same traction package was used on 'traditional' 600v systems. There is almost certainly a 'configuration variable' in the system some where that sets the nominal operating voltage. What is more important is that the regenerative braking mode will have to be disabled. There is probably a 'switch' for that too in the system configuration.

The trick of course, will be to get all the appropriate documentation and software along with the vehicle so that these settings can be changed.

Similar issues will hit when the Z3s and later get to the preservation scene, they will need their traction systems 're-tuned' too, to work satisfactorily on 'wimpy' museum power supplies.

1500 to 600v would be doable - but at significant loss of maximum power available. I doubt the other way would work so well - why would someone over design to 2.5 times the rated voltage ?.

[Dave Wilson]

I would rate the the bookshop R1 has having low heritage value in terms of significance to the evolution of Sydney's designs.

[lunchbox]

i hope that somebody with useful knowledge on the preservation of a Vario is tying it in with the Baird government's plans to move the Powerhouse Museum westward. There would be funds available there.

[matthewg]

I would rate the the bookshop R1 has having low heritage value in terms of significance to the evolution of Sydney's designs.

It was 'evolutionary' as opposed to 'revolutionary'. Also it's running gear has been lost, and any restoration probably would see it put on ex Melbourne W running gear like 2001. Any historical significance of it being a transitional design is thus lost.

[Bedford-29]

I`d say the body of 1933 that is being used as the tram museum bookshop would have historical status as its the first of the R/R1 conversions it be one tram I`d like to see restored.

[boronia]

If they didn't already have a number of R & R1s running, it might be justified.

I agree there are other trams there more worthy of restoration at this stage.

[matthewg]

I`d say the body of 1933 that is being used as the tram museum bookshop would have historical status as its the first of the R/R1 conversions it be one tram I`d like to see restored.

Restored as what exactly ?. There is no authentic R running gear to put under it, so it would get something else, like ex W class running gear. It would then not be an example of what it was, but 'just another R1 running on Melbourne trucks'.

Unless you are advocating fabricating appropriate running gear - and expensive and slow proposition.

That said new running gear IS being fabricated for the other P and the PR1 - but mostly as the point of a 2nd P is to MU it with the 1497 and for that to work, they have to be matched....

[mubd]

Just a question about the level crossing at Loftus - it seems that a hell of a lot of people continue travelling through even though the lights are flashing. It seems that a heck of a lot of people are willing to drive through level crossings while the lights are flashing, but pretty much all cars will stop at traffic signals. Surely proper traffic lights controlling the crossing would offer a bit more protection against red light runners at the intersection?

[boronia]

I don't think it matters what sort of lights you have there, drivers will know it is a level crossing and will continue to try and beat the tram.

With only a few crossings per hour, the cops are not likely to be interested in staking it out. Perhaps a red light camera might catch a few interlopers.

I think that the tram drivers are fully aware of the risks, and would not commence crossing until they are assured that all road traffic has securely stopped. It is not as if they are approaching the crossing at speed like a train would be.

[tonyp]

I suppose truck drivers are the main culprits as usual.

I don't know if it was ever established why a truck took the wire down at the crossing but got under the bridge further north, but I got a bit of an insight into what could have happenef at South Nowra a few weeks ago. A wreckers truck was driving along piled high with crushed car bodies, very dodgy securing and must have been up to the height limit if not over. Suddenly the headwind lifted the bonnet of the topmost car and it came within cm of the next lot of electricity wires. Fortunately a lot of tooting from other cars pulled him over before he did any damage. He would have had his work cut out climbing the ramshackle pile to fix it.

Sometimes I wonder if the only qualification you need to drive a truck is to fail an IQ test.

[Frosty]

With level crossings the one at Loftus isn't great. Thank goodness truck drivers don't try that at the General Holmes Dr crossing.

[Glen]

Just a question about the level crossing at Loftus - it seems that a hell of a lot of people continue travelling through even though the lights are flashing. It seems that a heck of a lot of people are willing to drive through level crossings while the lights are flashing, but pretty much all cars will stop at traffic signals. Surely proper traffic lights controlling the crossing would offer a bit more protection against red light runners at the intersection?

I often wonder why level crossings in general do not have normal traffic lights in order to more effectively stop cars, anywhere in the city or country.

There clearly needs to be a way of educating road users that a red light at a level crossing has the same meaning as a red light at a road intersection.

[tonyp]

With level crossings the one at Loftus isn't great. Thank goodness truck drivers don't try that at the General Holmes Dr crossing.

I understand that those booms have regularly had to be replaced over the years because of being broken by trucks. I think the attitude towards crossing lights is down to general contempt rather than ignorance of rules.

[Tonymercury]

Thank goodness truck drivers don't try that at the General Holmes Dr crossing.

Its not possible without breaking the boom arms,

See P6 of-
https://www.artc.com.au/library/2-2019% ... Botany.pdf


nd have a look at street view-

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/1+ ... 6b669da4da

This crossing is due to be replaced in conjunction with a major rebuild of the Wentworth Ave/Botany Rd intersection.

[boronia]

With level crossings the one at Loftus isn't great. Thank goodness truck drivers don't try that at the General Holmes Dr crossing.

I understand that those booms have regularly had to be replaced over the years because of being broken by trucks. I think the attitude towards crossing lights is down to general contempt rather than ignorance of rules.

Last time I saw this crossing being used, the train crew had to operate the bells and boom manually.

[Tonymercury]

Last time I saw this crossing being used, the train crew had to operate the bells and boom manually.

Its been the case for a number of years. Great bloody waste of time.

[tonyp]

Last time I saw this crossing being used, the train crew had to operate the bells and boom manually.

I think they had to do that because the booms were constantly broken by trucks. Playing it safe.

Here's a video from Europe demonstrating truck driver intelligence. In this case the law required him to break through the boom gate to get out - not that he should have been in in the first place. But he did move forward enough to save himself. The signwriting on the side of his cab says "King of the Road". Says it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuz_2xmq8HE

He killed three people on the train, amputated the train driver's leg and injured many people on the train and on the adjacent railway station where the train carried forward the debris, badly damaging the station. Damage was nearly $9 million. I won't mention Kerang. And they see themselves as folk heroes of the road.