New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

[Transtopic]

On the question of the fixed seating, I wonder if they also canvassed the public's opinion on the longitudinal seating for the new metro trains. In all of the government's initial publicity, the trains had a mix of transverse and longitudinal seats, but without any further consultation, that morphed into the all longitudinal model. They could at least have dividing armrests, which is common in some other jurisdictions.

They have had a full-size mockup on public display so no doubt they got plenty of feedback from that. I don't think armrests achive anything and would reduce the flexility of the seats (e.g. people with small kids etc).

I'd love to know what the feedback was from the mockup display. I can't recall seeing any publically released data and it would surprise me if it was positive. I hate longitudinal seating as much as I hate fixed seating, unless I'm travelling in the forward position. Call me old fashioned and a pleb, but that's my choice and I'm sure there are a lot of others out there like me. You give the customer what they want or suffer the consequencies and I shouldn't have to spell that out.

On the matter of armrests for longitudinal seating, they would at least make it bearable by avoiding sliding sideways into your neighbouring passenger because of the rapid acceleration and deceleration of the metro trains. The only positive outcome would be that it would give your glutes and thighs a good workout.

[tonyp]

I'd love to know what the feedback was from the mockup display. I can't recall seeing any publically released data and it would surprise me if it was positive. I hate longitudinal seating as much as I hate fixed seating, unless I'm travelling in the forward position. Call me old fashioned and a pleb, but that's my choice and I'm sure there are a lot of others out there like me. You give the customer what they want or suffer the consequencies and I shouldn't have to spell that out.

On the matter of armrests for longitudinal seating, they would at least make it bearable by avoiding sliding sideways into your neighbouring passenger because of the rapid acceleration and deceleration of the metro trains. The only positive outcome would be that it would give your glutes and thighs a good workout.

Yes it would be interesting to know the feedback, but I haven't seen any bad reaction on the Facebook arena where the public usually pour their hearts out on these matters.

My main barometer in this regard is the Perth trains, about which I never see any commentary about the seats, even when over the past several years the limited amount of transverse seating on earlier trainsets has been progressively converted to longitudinal. I have never seen any public commentary on the subject - including the additional issue of the quite limited seating capacity of these trains. I suspect the reason for the lack of adverse public reaction is the speed (and frequency = seats per hour) of the services and thus the substantially shorter journey times per distance they have compared to NSW. As the Sydney Metro journey times will be very close to those on the Perth system, per equivalent distance, this is obviously going to mitgate any grievances about seating comfort.

Armrests aren't necessary if the seats have upholstery and are sculpted. I've put this to the test on the rapid acceleration and deceleration of the Perth trains. No bracing necessary. I know what you mean though if the seats aren't upholstered, like the flat stainless steel seats on the Hong Kong trains! Been there.

The debate about seating capacity in the NIF is still raging away on the Illawarra:

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/stor ... ay/?cs=300

Of course the agonisingly long journey time makes it a more significant issue here, but apart from this I'm wondering whether the comparison should be against what the V sets offered rather than against the OSCARs, which are a suburban train that was supposed to be a temporary substitute. Does anybody know the comparitive seating capacity (per equivalent train length) of an Oscar vs a V set vs a NIF?

[sunnyyan]

These are my own calculations based on an analysis of the NIF contract (http://blog.jxeeno.com/new-intercity-fl ... to-expect/), and the Sydney Trains website.
Train Type|Seats|Length|seats/m
NIF Long |820 |204 |4.0196
NIF Short |650 |164 |3.9634
V set (DK) |416 |96 |4.3333
OSCAR |432 |82 |5.2683

[tonyp]

These are my own calculations based on an analysis of the NIF contract (http://blog.jxeeno.com/new-intercity-fl ... to-expect/), and the Sydney Trains website.
Train Type|Seats|Length|seats/m
NIF Long |820 |204 |4.0196
NIF Short |650 |164 |3.9634
V set (DK) |416 |96 |4.3333
OSCAR |432 |82 |5.2683

There's an obvious trade-off between comfort and seating capacity and people will have to decide which they favour. That is basically infuenced by journey time and trains per hour.

[lunchbox]

THE SEATS FIASCO....
Transport for NSW, in its April 2018 Fleet Program Delivery Newsletter, engages in public relations "spin" to reinforce its unpopular fixed-seats policy for the New Intercity Fleet, using a highlighted break-out in the text. This bulldust phase is exactly what was referred to in internal TfNSW documents which revealed that there was a strong customer appeal for reversible seating and that "customer expectations would need to be managed".

As expected, the article only refers to what TfNSW sees as the positives of fixed seating, and makes no mention of "customer expectations", nor, for example, the 87% of respondents to the Illawarra Mercury's survey who preferred reversible seating.

As for the Regional Rail Project, in which new trains will replace the XPTs, Xplorers, and Endeavours, contracts are expected to be awarded in early 2019. When might TfNSW engage the public on seat design for thsese trains?

[rogf24]

Tbh, I really don't understand this beat up over the fixed seating, as long as they are comfy and nicely padded, it should be fine. It won't be as ideal as facing forward but there's more to comfort than direction alone. I've sat facing backwards on a V-set recently from the Blue Mountains and it was still very comfortable (the other seats were taken) but I also faced forwards on an OSCAR from the Central Coast and it was terrible. The V/Locity trains are also very comfortable facing backwards and the tray tables were handy. As long as they don't design the new seats like OSCARs, forward or backwards, I don't care.

[boronia]

The issue is not about comfort per se, but a preference to see what is coming into view - not what you have just gone past.

[rogf24]

A preference is just that, a preference, and since it it doesn't impact on utility or comfort, it should (rightly) be further down on the consideration hierarchy. Does it really matter if something is coming into view or going past you beyond it being a preference? (The rest of the world has figured this questioned out.)

[lunchbox]

At the risk of repetition, people who don't care which direction they face simply don't care. Those who want to face forward care PASSIONATELY.

[rogf24]

Well personally, I want to face forward (who doesn't) but I don't care about it passionately. This seating thing isn't really a fiasco, it's a beat-up.

[boronia]

For a tourist/photographer, there might be something interesting along the lineside worth having a picture of. Having a couple of seconds advance warning gives them a chance to line the shot up.

Reversible seating gives more people the chance of deciding which way they want to face.

[Tonymercury]

Someone who has done some recent V/Line travel commented to me that it is VERY obvious which seats fill first.

[tonyp]

Apparently, medically, women suffer a greater incidence of vertigo from various causes and I found it interesting in feedback in the Mercury that quite a number of women, more than men, have significant concerns about this. Because its a physically invisible condition, you can be sure that people will not gallantly give up their forward-facing seats to vertigo sufferers like they might for somebody who is heavily pregnant or on crutches.

As Tony says, there will as usual be a rush for the forward-facing seats on boarding. That tells the story alone.

I can only say that the seats in our car face forward and the journey in it is much faster. If they want to attract people to public transport they have to do some basic, long-understood, things to make it attractive.

Before somebody mentions the metro, sideways seats are not so bad with vertigo because you can look forward.

[boronia]

Perhaps they should start an "acclimatisation" program by locking the seats in the V sets so they can't be reversed. One side of the carriage Tangarra style, and the other side in facing pairs.

[neilrex]

The other issue is all the weirdos staring at you.

[boronia]

Or vice-versa.

Face to face is good if you are in a group of 3 or 4. Also, this was quite common in older loco hauled carriages, so is not a new concept

[Tonymercury]

The other issue is all the weirdos staring at you.

They may well think the same of you!

'A gunsel if ever I've seen one. He'll probably start foaming in a minute'!

[quaidy]

Most people have their heads down in gadgets, so WiFi, tables and chargers are going to trump direction of travel for most, if there is a choice.

[Tonymercury]

Most people have their heads down in gadgets, so WiFi, tables and chargers are going to trump direction of travel for most, if there is a choice.

Apparently not on V/line.

[tonyp]

Perhaps they should start an "acclimatisation" program by locking the seats in the V sets so they can't be reversed. One side of the carriage Tangarra style, and the other side in facing pairs.

They won't do this because they know that people won't like it. This will just be a predictable rerun of the XPT and Tangara attempts.

[GazzaOak]

Haha, i love to be this troll that face the seat backwards on a overcrowded train

[tonyp]

NIF mockup released:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sec ... 4zo1m.html

[tonyp]

South Coast meme:

[andy_centralcoast]

There's some photos here: https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/sto ... ty-trains/

It looks pretty much like an Oscar, but with fixed 2x2 seats.

[MotorOmnibus8562]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sec ... 4zo1m.html

Hidden in an old warehouse near Sydney Olympic Park, a life-sized model of NSW's new intercity trains offers a glimpse into the future for passengers travelling to Newcastle, the Blue Mountains and the south coast.

For the past nine months, designers have been crawling over the stainless steel carriage – some of it made from 3D printing – to fine tune aspects of the interior such as baggage storage, bicycle racks and even the colour of seats.

The first of 512 new carriages will begin replacing the state's four-decade-old V-set trains from late next year on the rail line to the Central Coast and Newcastle.

By mid-2020, the new trains being built in South Korea will begin running on the Blue Mountains line to Mount Victoria, followed by Lithgow about four months later and, after that, on the South Coast line to Wollongong and Kiama.

Among the most noticeable features are toilets accessible for large wheelchairs, smaller steps on the stairs between the two decks that make them easier to climb, power points for mobile devices and tray tables.


And in a break from the past, fixed seats with arm rests have been incorporated into the carriages in a two-by-two formation instead of reversible seats like those on the V-set trains.