New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Today, as in very early this morning, or as in late tonight?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

Tonight apparently
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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I'm sure there were some links to the STNs posted here a week or so ago, but they have gone now.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Daniel »

Testing commenced last night between St Marys and Blacktown.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Bus Suggestions »

From Sydney Trains Vlogs on Youtube:

https://youtu.be/3SYGllBNqSE
I'd post any important, bus-related links I had, but they're outdated anyways.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Petarkco »

What time was it running between St Marys and Blacktown?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

Petarkco wrote:What time was it running between St Marys and Blacktown?
Approx 10pm to 2am
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Here comes the RTBU, getting in the way of progress again:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/syd ... 1581171794
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Will this virus that's bad in South Korea and China at the moment delay the manufacture and delivery of these NIF trains
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Possibly
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

As well as that, it could also severely affect the B sets currently being built too.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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From SMH 29/04/2020:[http://todayspaper.smedia.com.au/smh/default.aspx]
$2.4b intercity fleet stuck at the station
RAIL DISPUTE

Tom Rabe

The first of Sydney’s new intercity trains has been unveiled, but the government has no set date to operate the multibillion-dollar fleet as a union dispute drags on.

NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance said yesterday the trains would begin arriving in sets of 10 each month from mid-2020. The fleet was originally due to be delivered from South Korea in early 2019.

Mr Constance blamed union disputes and the coronavirus pandemic for delaying the trains, which will operate across the Central Coast, South Coast, Newcastle and the Blue Mountains.

‘‘There was, last year, a lot of effort going into the design of the train, which did put it back a couple of months,’’ Mr Constance said as he unveiled the first of the 55 trains in Hurstville. ‘‘The COVID situation could also add to delays.’’

The $2.4 billion trains have been the subject of an ongoing war between the government and the Rail, Tram and Bus Union, with the modern fleet originally designed to operate without a train guard. While the government has since conceded to allow a driver and a guard on each train, the union has no guarantees its members will staff the new fleet.

‘‘It hasn’t changed, in fact it’s got worse,’’ union secretary Alex Claasens said of the industrial negotiations. ‘‘We’ll get to a point where we just refuse to work it.’’

He said union delegates had been given two opportunities to inspect the trains, which are being tested across the state’s network.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Living in the Shire.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Living in the Shire.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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The fleet was originally due to be delivered from South Korea in early 2019.
You could hardly blame to virus for the trains being 12 months behind.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

boronia wrote:
The fleet was originally due to be delivered from South Korea in early 2019.
You could hardly blame to virus for the trains being 12 months behind.
But then again the Virus would make things worse....
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Trial set currently parked in Penrith Up sidings. (08:30)
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

In other news, upgrades to the blue mountains line to prepare for the rollout of the New Intercity fleet is now complete.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... w-complete
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

In Channel 7 coverage, much was made of the upgrade allowing 160 km/h. Now that wouldnt be across the mountains, it would only be between Blacktown and Penrith, if that. They have to justify it somewhere and this is about the only place on the system where they could do it. Well it could be done on parts of the south coast south of Thirroul but they wouldn't be politically interested in that. I presume there are swinging seats in the mountains.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Probably a section on CCN around Wyee where they could do it.

Only a short term benefit, might have been better to sacrifice top speed for lower gearing and better accelaration?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Speed limits won't be increased until ATO is rolled out across the network which is expected to be completed within the next decade. ATO will also allow closer headways and in the process higher frequencies. The track itself isn't the problem in restricting higher speeds, but the existing signaling is.

There are numerous sections of track within the Sydney Metro area and the Intercity lines where speeds up to 160km/h would be possible once the signaling has been upgraded. Some examples have already been given, such as on the Western Line between Blacktown and Penrith and on the Northern Line between Gosford and Newcastle, not to mention the South Coast line north of Wollongong. There are also others like the Northern Line between Strathfield and West Ryde (which is practically dead straight); the Illawarra/South Coast Line between Sutherland and Waterfall and sections of the East Hills and South Lines between Wolli Creek and Campbelltown. In the latter instance, it would benefit future through Intercity services once electrification is extended to the Southern Highlands, which is part of long-term planning. The new bi-mode Regional Train fleet with a similar maximum speed of 160km/h would also benefit. You don't need completely straight track to achieve higher speeds.

The D sets will be tested up to 176km/h with exclusive track possession, which is 10% above their maximum service speed, just as the Millenniums and Waratahs were tested up to 143km/h, being 10% above their maximum service speed of 130km/h.

I don't think these maximum service speeds would have been specified unless there was an intention to utilize them once the track and more particularly signaling infrastructure was upgraded in the future. Otherwise, why bother? It demonstrates that there is still some forward planning alive in the legacy bureaucracy.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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boronia wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:03 pm Probably a section on CCN around Wyee where they could do it.

Only a short term benefit, might have been better to sacrifice top speed for lower gearing and better accelaration?
I think you're underestimating the benefits of the higher speed capability, and hence higher average speeds, for the longer distance Intercity trains. I haven't been able to find the acceleration/deceleration specifications for the D sets, but it's not really relevant for what are essentially express services with limited stops through the metro area. The XPT is a bit of a slug in this regard, but it doesn't take away its end to end journey time, notwithstanding the current restrictive speed limits through the metro area, which I expect will change, as I alluded to in my previous post.

The Waratahs have similar acceleration/deceleration specifications to the Alstom Metropolis metro rolling stock currently in use, but it's rarely if ever utilized because of the current restrictive signaling technology. They also have a higher maximum service speed of 130km/h compared with the Metropolis' 100km/h. This will all change when ATO is rolled out. It will put to bed once and for all tonyp's spurious argument that an all stations long distance metro train will beat hands down an equivalent Sydney Trains limited stop express service without the restrictive limits imposed by the current signaling technology.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

I wish them luck out-performing the metro with new signalling. A couple of weeks ago I went to Central from Waterfall on a typical semi-express train. The distance from Waterfall to Redfern is about the same as Tallawong to Chatswood. The Waterfall train takes 46 minutes to Redfern with 10 intermediate stops. The metro takes 36 minutes with 11 intermediate stops. Taking into account the extra station on the metro, that is more than a 10 minute difference in journey time. That's a big discrepancy to bridge. There's also quite a bit of uncomfortable rock n roll in the suburban train that you don't get on the single deck metro train (or on the Endeavours that I use further down the line). It'll be interesting to see how they've dealt with that in the NIF design. If it's bad at 100 km/h I can't imagine what it'd be like at 160. That is something that would slow them down on curves as the lateral forces become uncomfortable. I have ridden high-speed double deckers in Germany but the lines are quite straight and the trains are better-designed.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

Transtopic wrote: I don't think these maximum service speeds would have been specified unless there was an intention to utilize them once the track and more particularly signaling infrastructure was upgraded in the future. Otherwise, why bother?
Plenty of rolling stock has been procured with capabilities that were never exploited, XPT's 200km/h top speed being an example.
tonyp wrote: The Waterfall train takes 46 minutes to Redfern with 10 intermediate stops. The metro takes 36 minutes with 11 intermediate stops.
And has been pointed out numerous times, the Metro running on a relatively flat, isolated, 21st century line will always have the wood on a 19th century alignment with all of its curves, junctions, grades and different stopping patterns. Likewise a near new Metro train will have superior acceleration and deceleration characteristics compared to a 30 year old Tangara.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

Transtopic wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:15 am
I think you're underestimating the benefits of the higher speed capability, and hence higher average speeds, for the longer distance Intercity trains. I haven't been able to find the acceleration/deceleration specifications for the D sets, but it's not really relevant for what are essentially express services with limited stops through the metro area. The XPT is a bit of a slug in this regard, but it doesn't take away its end to end journey time, notwithstanding the current restrictive speed limits through the metro area, which I expect will change, as I alluded to in my previous post.
I'd have to say that the XPT was conceived as a high-performance train, not a high-speed train, that's the biggest misunderstanding about it over the years. Far from being a slug, it's greatest asset was its acceleration/deceleration performance in and out of stations, curves and gradients compared to the loco-hauled trains it replaced. High speed doesn't count for much unless you have long straightish stretches without stations, over which a train can get its legs. You don't get this very much in NSW, particularly in the interurban area, so it's essential that any train acquired has high-performance characteristics. So I hope this is the case with the NIFs.

I agree with you fully about the need for the ATO resignalling and I hope that this enables all of the double deck stock to perform to its potential. I also agree with you that the signalling is the key to the issue more than the track (except for the issue of junctions). I think you're well in command of the facts, unlike the various apologists for the status quo who come up with throwaway remarks that sound like press releases from TfNSW. For example, in terms of comparing corridors, putting the Ilawarra line against the NW metro line is actually a fair comparison because, when you look at the alignment and gradient diagrams, the characteristics balance out:

1. The Illawarra line as far as Waterfall is in fact a relatively straight line. A few minor wiggles crossing the Georges River are the worst. The NW metro has a few turns along it, the worst being the Lane Cover River crossing. There are few straight runs (Rouse Hill-Bella Vista, Cherrybrook- Epping, through North Ryde).

2. The only significant grade on the Illawarra is the Como Bank which is about 1:44. I don't have a figure for the Lane Cove River crossing, but from the press I gather it's about 1:35.

3. The only junctions of any significance impacting the Illawarra line are the Cronulla line, Mortdale sheds and Erskineville turnout. If everything is running to timetable, these have zero impact.

4. The Illawarra line (like all Sydney lines) is not an "old" railway that hasn't changed since John Whitton last laid eyes on it. It's been renewed again and again, right up to recent times. I think you're correctly onto that when you say that the track isn't the problem.

My essential point is that 10+ minutes is a big gap to bridge. I too hope that they can bridge it using ATO and new trains. You would likely be more optimistic than me on that. In the overall scheme of things, if they can reduce the deficiency to a few minutes on suburban runs, that's probably not a big deal. Missing stops still remains an issue though. The expectations for interurban trains are much higher of course.
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