Inner West Light Rail observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Glen
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Glen »

There are signs at the light rail stops warning about heavy loading expected for the NSW Premier’s Gala Concerts on 14 & 15/2:

https://transportnsw.info/events/2019/0 ... certs-2019
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Glen wrote:There are signs at the light rail stops warning about heavy loading expected for the NSW Premier’s Gala Concerts on 14 & 15/2:

https://transportnsw.info/events/2019/0 ... certs-2019
It seems from a report a few minutes ago that the trams are having problems as anticipated. Big queues at Central plus the headways may have collapsed.

This is what happens when transport agencies take a minimalist, begrudging approach to capacity in public transport planning while swallowing uncritically over-estimates of motorway traffic volumes. Thanks a lot NSW government transport planners. What have you got in store for us next? Water taxis for the Manly ferry?
STMPainter2018
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by STMPainter2018 »

tonyp wrote: It seems from a report a few minutes ago that the trams are having problems as anticipated. Big queues at Central plus the headways may have collapsed.

This is what happens when transport agencies take a minimalist, begrudging approach to capacity in public transport planning while swallowing uncritically over-estimates of motorway traffic volumes. Thanks a lot NSW government transport planners. What have you got in store for us next? Water taxis for the Manly ferry?
Let's be real; is this EVER gonna change?
matthewg
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by matthewg »

STMPainter2018 wrote:Thanks a lot NSW government transport planners. What have you got in store for us next? Water taxis for the Manly ferry?
Let's be real; is this EVER gonna change?[/quote]

It might - NSW had a brief try using professional transport planning and modelling in the lead up to the Olympics when the Olympic co-ordination authority basically took over everything.

A colleague's wife who had specialised in transport modelling (construction and testing of mathematical models of transport flows) got a few years work out of the Olympics, but when that finished they were all let go instead of being merged into 'transport'.

She's never had a permanent job since in her chosen field since.
A comment made to me was Australia's (particularly NSW) idea of transport planning is purely civil engineering driven - its all about building things, NOT optimising the flow of people or goods.

What transport modelling is done, is only done to support the case for building more things, no one wants to know the 'big picture', especially one that may say you don't need to build more big things, but just optimise the flows on what you already have with a number of little changes.
moa999
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by moa999 »

Not sure if having a bunch of extra trams that are only used a couple of days a year is efficient.. supplementing with buses seems far better.

That said as previously discussed, turning trams around at Wentworth Park would be smart, but they seem incapable of this.

As would be being able to use all the spare trams stabled at Randwick, but that seems to be another issue.
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

There is some reason that the Alstom trams are incompatible for use in service on IWLR (apart from the wheel profile and points) but it escapes me now.
matthewg
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by matthewg »

tonyp wrote:There is some reason that the Alstom trams are incompatible for use in service on IWLR (apart from the wheel profile and points) but it escapes me now.
The body is a smidgen narrower so the gap between the platforms and the doorway does not meet current disability access standards. The CAFs have tread plates at each door to narrow the gap between them and the platforms built for the Variotrams.
I guess if the Citadis did run on the IWLR there is a risk that a wheelchair user could get their front caster wheel caught in the gap and TfNSW could be sued for allowing a vehicle into service that didn't comply with current standards.

This lack of compatibility prevents the two lines from being able to use their reserve stock to cover a shortfall on the other or other 'creative' routings for special events.
STMPainter2018
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by STMPainter2018 »

matthewg wrote:
STMPainter2018 wrote: Let's be real; is this EVER gonna change?
It might - NSW had a brief try using professional transport planning and modelling in the lead up to the Olympics when the Olympic co-ordination authority basically took over everything.
Yes I have heard the legends of how public transport in Sydney was actually GOOD during the Olympics. I was only 4 when they happened so I wasn't paying attention, but my parents did tell me how great is. The question is: How are we gonna get that kind of planning and modelling back?! Cause I can't see it happening and I really wanna be optimistic.
STMPainter2018
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by STMPainter2018 »

matthewg wrote:
tonyp wrote:There is some reason that the Alstom trams are incompatible for use in service on IWLR (apart from the wheel profile and points) but it escapes me now.
The body is a smidgen narrower so the gap between the platforms and the doorway does not meet current disability access standards. The CAFs have tread plates at each door to narrow the gap between them and the platforms built for the Variotrams.
I guess if the Citadis did run on the IWLR there is a risk that a wheelchair user could get their front caster wheel caught in the gap and TfNSW could be sued for allowing a vehicle into service that didn't comply with current standards.

This lack of compatibility prevents the two lines from being able to use their reserve stock to cover a shortfall on the other or other 'creative' routings for special events.
This is what I've been saying for a while now! Not only do they need to make the check rails/points on the IWLR, the same type of French tramway standard the CSELR has (a well as modify the wheel profiles on the CAFs), but they also need to modify most of the platforms by extending them lengthwise, and then add platform gaps so the Citadis trams can meet the DAS, which is something Matthew has brought up a few times before. This will also mean the CAF tread plates can be removed too, potentially allowing them to run on the non-APS sections of the CSELR. In addition, if you remove temporary speed restrictions over some of the points, as well as have traffic light priority along the street section (if the CSELR is getting it, why shouldn't the IWLR), then not only would you have a consistent and compatible Light Rail network across the board, but running times and capacity constraints would be significantly improved by having spare Citadis trams running direct services from Dulwich Hill to Circular Quay! Then you won't have people on the IWLR wanting to go into the CBD complaining about having to change trams (when there isn't even an interchange!!). Of course there's the issue of the single-track terminus at DH but that's more a longer term issue imo. In the meantime, provisions could be put in place so that a spare driver is waiting at Dulwich Hill, ready to step into opposite end of the tram and reduce changeover times (credit to moa999 for this). Overall, the IWLR is in DESPERATE need of modifications so that we have a compatible Light Rail NETWORK plus improved services. And these modifications are only small fixes. But they NEED to happen (preferably sooner rather later), we HAVE to make it happen! We need to start hounding whoever we need to hound such as TfNSW until they learn to take their fingers out of their asses, and become competent at their jobs! And that includes introducing a set of standards for current and future Light Rail lines in this city! But only we, the gunzels, have the power to make this happen! THE REVOLUTION IS UPON US COMRADES! UNLEASH THE DOGS OF WAR, AND MAKE NSW PUBLIC TRANSPORT GREAT AGAIN!!!!! (Basks in the rapturous applause from the audience...). Okay I know I got a little bit extra at the end (cause I'm passionate) but ya get the general gist.
Linto63
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

moa999 wrote:Not sure if having a bunch of extra trams that are only used a couple of days a year is efficient.. supplementing with buses seems far better.
Not sure if it happened yesterday, but the forecourt at Central this morning was lined with State Transit buses to do just that.
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Fleet Lists
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

Yes was reported under STA observations yesterday and I travelled on one of them - certainly an around the world trip via Wentworth Park and Pyrmont.
Living in the Shire.
Glen
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Glen »

moa999 wrote:as previously discussed, turning trams around at Wentworth Park would be smart, but they seem incapable of this.
Bear in mind that Wentworth Park is a facing crossover.

It is a lot harder to schedule an efficient reversing movement when you potentially cross over in front of an oncoming tram, rather than reverse on a trailing crossover on the line you have just come from, because the next tram will be a given distance (and time) behind you.

Yesterday (and Thursday) they were running additional 'express' services between Central and Exhibition for the Seniors concerts (reversing at the depot), loading from the eastern end at Central i.e. the normal set down stop. Generally the services were alternating, a normal Dulwich Hill all stops service followed by an Exhibition express etc.

They certainly had a lot of staff on the ground and moved some big loads.
Last edited by Glen on Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jpp42
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by jpp42 »

Glad to see they had a go at running short workings for a special event. Finally. Hopefully the lessons learned are positive and we'll see more of this in the future.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Fleet Lists wrote:Yes was reported under STA observations yesterday and I travelled on one of them - certainly an around the world trip via Wentworth Park and Pyrmont.
Maybe they should pour bitumen on the tracks so the buses can use them all the way.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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boronia
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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They have used buses over the tracks before on tram replacement, although they had problems getting from the up ramp into the colonnade.

The works at George/Hay Sts would be preventing that now.
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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote:They have used buses over the tracks before on tram replacement, although they had problems getting from the up ramp into the colonnade.

The works at George/Hay Sts would be preventing that now.
I think Swift is referring to paving the tracks all the way to Dulwich Hill! Laying tram tracks in Sydney's busways would be a fair trade-of for this.
Glen
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Glen »

jpp42 wrote:Glad to see they had a go at running short workings for a special event. Finally. Hopefully the lessons learned are positive and we'll see more of this in the future.
This was not the first time this has been done for the Seniors concerts.
Glen
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Glen »

Swift wrote:
Fleet Lists wrote:Yes was reported under STA observations yesterday and I travelled on one of them - certainly an around the world trip via Wentworth Park and Pyrmont.
Maybe they should pour bitumen on the tracks so the buses can use them all the way.
Be careful what you wish for.

Cars next?
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boronia
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

Swift wrote:
Fleet Lists wrote:Yes was reported under STA observations yesterday and I travelled on one of them - certainly an around the world trip via Wentworth Park and Pyrmont.
Maybe they should pour bitumen on the tracks so the buses can use them all the way.
Didn't Labor have a plan at one stage to construct a truck route along the right of way?
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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

That was the plan until Keneally buckled and preserved the line in their last ditch attempt to save themselves at the election. It's now the highest-patronised non-railway public transport route in NSW.
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Swift
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

tonyp wrote:That was the plan until Keneally buckled and preserved the line in their last ditch attempt to save themselves at the election. It's now the highest-patronised non-railway public transport route in NSW.
Labor really are tram averse as well as border control averse.
I agree that ratty car drivers wouldn't be able to resist a traffic light free roadway to the inner west but doesn't a camera solve this like the bus only bridge linking Rhodes and Wentworth Park?
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by J_Busworth »

It’s taking trans 15 minutes from Central to Darling Drive at the moment. Surely the shocking traffic light priority isn’t usually that bad?!? Even our driver apologised for “the useless set of lights holding you captive.”
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Linto63
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

Fleet Lists wrote:Yes was reported under STA observations yesterday and I travelled on one of them - certainly an around the world trip via Wentworth Park and Pyrmont.
Glen wrote:Yesterday (and Thursday) they were running additional 'express' services between Central and Exhibition for the Seniors concerts (reversing at the depot), loading from the eastern end at Central i.e. the normal set down stop.
So the statement that "'transport agencies take a minimalist, begrudging approach to capacity in public transport planning...." appears a bit of an overreaction when actually steps were take to deal with the expected crowds. :oops: But a good excuse nonetheless for another anti TfNSW rant. :(
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

I like the way you think you'll catch me out! ;)

The fact that the trams can't handle the traffic on their own proves that TfNSW has taken a minimalist, begrudging approach to planning the light rail (and ordering trams). The measures they've taken to deal with this event are bandaid stuff that shouldn't have been necessary if it was done properly in the first place. At least they've worked out they can short work trams to the depot, that's something. TfNSW has itself admitted that the line was planned and built with capacity constraints in their own internal reporting which I think has been discussed here previously. That reporting discusses options for rectifying the mistakes.

It's disappointing about the traffic lights. Surely since TfNSW and RMS are under the same administration a phone call could sort it out.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

If there was a country looking for consultants on how to spend as little as you can get away with, NSW world be the one stop shop, assuming that country/city had a populace as easily led and indoctrinated as Sydney people.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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