Opal Discussion and Observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
mandonov
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by mandonov »

Newcastle Flyer wrote:http://www.theherald.com.au/story/52981 ... rk/?cs=305

What does he mean Opal data doesn't lie? IT does and has. I've must have over 700 errors by now.
How on earth do you have so many errors?? I've only had about a dozen in the three years I've used the system.
Passenger 57
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

Stu wrote:https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh ... 4z4qj.html

Forgive me if this has already been posted. Mr. Pussycat was fined for dare evasion.
Seems rather pointless to take it this far and plead guilty.
Passenger 57
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

jpp42 wrote:I just wanted to point out that the situation will probably be perceived as customer unfriendly. Maybe something like "transaction recorded" would be helpful to indicate that the tap was recorded for later reconciliation? Or maybe something indicating the maximum possible fare? I don't know - it just seems odd that there's no real indication how much you're being charged.
Without backend or local knowledge the messages can't really be very helpful. If contactless is meant to remain as a single trip ticket alternative they could display fare information at gates but even then ferry transfers are problematic if they allowed on contactless as they are on single trip tickets. They could display a different message for exiting at a gate or reversals but for tap on/tap off at pole readers at different stations options are pretty limited unless the readers talk to the backend which is least unlikely for buses.
matthewg
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by matthewg »

Passenger 57 wrote:They could display a different message for exiting at a gate or reversals but for tap on/tap off at pole readers at different stations options are pretty limited unless the readers talk to the backend which is least unlikely for buses.
Unlikely for fixed readers too - the moment you require a lookup to the backend you have blown out your transaction times. The tap transaction has to be processed very fast. Calling out and waiting for a response from an external database slow down the readers unacceptably.

Transaction time is something Cubic has taken way more seriously than some of its competitors - and this appears to be due to very strict transaction cycle times demanded contractually in London. The rollout of Contactless in London was delayed over year while Cubic, TfL and the UK banks worked to get the transaction time below 500ms.
Passenger 57
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Passenger 57 »

matthewg wrote:Transaction time is something Cubic has taken way more seriously than some of its competitors - and this appears to be due to very strict transaction cycle times demanded contractually in London. The rollout of Contactless in London was delayed over year while Cubic, TfL and the UK banks worked to get the transaction time below 500ms.
Apparently this is part of the EMV specs in certain markets. The longer the local read/write cycle the more resources that would be need to be provisioned at the backend were any real-time back end processing to take place to keep the total transaction time down. The solution of course in the absence of a real time backend is to add some local state to the card. The EMV specs have provision for an optional transit file (ISO TR14806). There is probably little prospect that all card issuers will implement this but perhaps Google will see a reason to build it into Android Pay.

Some real world transaction results from TfL sampling on buses in 2013.
Stu
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Stu »

The ESR shutdown over the weekend marks the first occasion whereby variant numbers have been assigned to rail replacement routes provided by STA - I'm not sure if any private operators already use variant numbers for rail replacement routes.

The Opal consoles already have (currently redundant) an area reserved for 'smart card events' which may be further developed to be used for rail replacement services. Route variant numbers may be the next baby step in ultimately allowing the Opal console and readers on the bus to be one day used for rail replacement services.
Frosty
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Frosty »

@Stu would then be possible also in future to have real-time tracking on these rail replacement services for customers.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Fleet Lists »

What are these variant numbers? I guess they are the numbers already allocated such as
01-25T1- for a Berowra-then-all-stations-to-Hornsby-Waitara-Pymble-Gordon train replacement service.

If that is the case it would certainly be possible to have real-time tracking for these.
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Stu
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Stu »

^ The '01' appears to be a variant number as I cannot think of what else it may represent.

20T4.
IN: BJI to Central - variant 4.
OUT: Central to BJI - variant 3.

21T4.
IN: BJI to Central - variant 1.
OUT: Central to BJI - variant 2.

22T4.
IN: BJI to Town Hall - variant 1.
OUT: Town Hall to BJI - variant 2.

Route variant number example.
132-OUT: Manly Whf to Warringah Mall (inside). (variant 1) (all of this type of service from morning to night)
132-OUT: Manly Whf to Warringah Mall (outside on Pittwater Rd). (variant 2) (all of this type of service from morning to night)
132-OUT: Manly Whf to Warringah Mall (inside) - divert via Balgowlah Heights Public School. (variant 7) (1 x trip each school day)

Variants are also created for:
- Special events or planned roadworks that warrant a temporary terminus.
- Special events or planned roadworks that create a diversion which causes bus stop closures.
- Special events or planned roadworks that create a diversion which creates temporary bus stops.
- Special events or planned roadworks that create a diversion which causes the service to use bus stops on another route.
- New timetables / new services.
- Bus Priority Infrastructure Program (BPIP).
- Any changes to the previous years arrangements for special events such as directions/diversions/temporary terminals.
- Special event additional services that either commence from a terminus or terminate at a terminus that is not in the regular timetable.

The numbers don't always commence from '1', the numbers can start from anywhere although mostly still exist in a sequential pattern. Sometimes when a new timetable is created, an entirely new group of numbers may be created to replace the old numbers. There appears to be no logic or relationships in regards to all of the routes and variant numbers, they could be generated by a complex computer system for all we know. I certainly believe that real time tracking would be possible and become available with the rail replacement services just like all other routes.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Fleet Lists »

That is not the number I was thinking of - in the case of route of route 132 the number in Transport Info is 17 at all times which is the number used for all Northern beaches routes while the 01 I referred to in my previous post applies to all rail replacement services.

Hence I dont know whether this "variant" number is something just used by STA or by all operators.

And hence I dont think it would be the route number used in real time tracking. It would use the route numbers 20T4, etc.
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Stu
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Stu »

Region 7 (STA) will become completely cashless from April 9.
moa999
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by moa999 »

Stu wrote:Region 7 (STA) will become completely cashless from April 9.
Would that also suggest that contactless would roll out to buses from that date?
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Fleet Lists »

I dont think so. I am surprised that there has been no publicity about this at all - no news item on Transport Info or elsewhere that I can see.
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Swift
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Swift »

What are we going to do about the anti socials who don't tap on or off?
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by J_Busworth »

Stu wrote:Region 7 (STA) will become completely cashless from April 9.
Surely there should be some information given out, even if it is just signs at stops. What will happen to all the people at he nursing home pay pay for their fares in 10 cent pieces?
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Swift wrote:What are we going to do about the anti socials who don't tap on or off?
Maybe get everybody to register their adult opal or their kids child opal and get everyone to anable the auto top up so it's easier for the government to deal with
Jurassic_Joke
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Stu wrote:Region 7 (STA) will become completely cashless from April 9.
Irrelevant news given that anyone that doesnt have cash will just be waived onto the bus for a free ride. But actually, I welcome the end of the annoying fiddling for coins in wallet, and the traffic light turns red...

And on the other hand, I'm happy that bus drivers will feel safer as going cashless (obviously) reduces the chance for them to get mugged.
Tonymercury
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Tonymercury »

J_Busworth wrote: What will happen to all the people at he nursing home pay pay for their fares in 10 cent pieces?
None of these excitements seem to occur down here on Botany Rd, so, fortunately, I seem to miss this sort of stuff.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Fleet Lists »

Campbelltown busboy wrote:
Swift wrote:What are we going to do about the anti socials who don't tap on or off?
Maybe get everybody to register their adult opal or their kids child opal and get everyone to anable the auto top up so it's easier for the government to deal with
That would make no difference.
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boronia
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by boronia »

Jurassic_Joke wrote:
Stu wrote:Region 7 (STA) will become completely cashless from April 9.
Irrelevant news given that anyone that doesnt have cash will just be waived onto the bus for a free ride. But actually, I welcome the end of the annoying fiddling for coins in wallet, and the traffic light turns red...

And on the other hand, I'm happy that bus drivers will feel safer as going cashless (obviously) reduces the chance for them to get mugged.
A lot of people seem to spend as much time looking for their Opal card as they did looking for change. You obviously don't realise how difficult it is to hold a phone to your ear with one hand and get your card out of your wallet/purse with the other. :lol: :lol:

Very few reported muggings have involved the theft of cash, but the the other motivations have not changed.
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simonl
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by simonl »

Stu wrote:Region 7 (STA) will become completely cashless from April 9.
What! One region and before contactless is rolled out. Are you sure?

I guess we'll find out on Monday. Presumably you meant 2018.
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Swift »

Campbelltown busboy wrote:
Swift wrote:What are we going to do about the anti socials who don't tap on or off?
Maybe get everybody to register their adult opal or their kids child opal and get everyone to anable the auto top up so it's easier for the government to deal with
Alpha looking male police officers with batons on the side wearing traditional police hats (not caps) would do wonders. The weasels would, of course, cry heavy handedness in any media coverage.
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Stu
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Stu »

The internal memo about Region 7 going cashless is riddled with mistakes and omissions regarding the routes involved.
Missing routes: 203, 207, 208, 209, 238 & 257.
Incorrect routes: 504, 530 and (drum roll).......!!!!381!!!!

* the routes that are already prepay were not included in the list which is understandable.
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swtt
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by swtt »

Stu wrote:Region 7 (STA) will become completely cashless from April 9.
Stu wrote:The internal memo about Region 7 going cashless is riddled with mistakes and omissions regarding the routes involved.
For a while I had to think... Stu usually doesn't play the April Fool's game!

No announcements whatsoever - perhaps something that should just be put on hold?
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Re: Introducing OPAL Card

Post by Fleet Lists »

Stu wrote:The internal memo about Region 7 going cashless is riddled with mistakes and omissions regarding the routes involved.
Missing routes: 203, 207, 208, 209, 238 & 257.
Incorrect routes: 504, 530 and (drum roll).......!!!!381!!!!

* the routes that are already prepay were not included in the list which is understandable.
It would be nice to know which routes are involved, For instance is route 200 included? In some places it is defined as region 7 and in others as Eastern.
Also 238 is Northern Beaches in Transport Info.
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