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Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Linto63 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:58 pm

tonyp wrote:The trams didn't need to overtake each other. Like the metro, they did an excellent and fast job stopping at all stops. They didn't need to express.
An express service from La Perouse would have been quicker than the all shacks, but with only one track, it would have ended up running into one of the latter, so there was little point.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby boronia » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:42 am

tonyp wrote:
It was the same when replacing trams with buses in Sydney. After the conversion, the buses were taking about the same time for journeys as the trams did, but that was part of the big lie that the buses were faster. The trams stopped at every stop, but the buses didn't have to stop unless requested and - additionally to that in the propaganda war - they brought in semi-express bus services to make the trips faster. But of course they had far less utility for many users. A journey isn't faster for you when the vehicle roars past your stop. The two-tier type of service is a crude solution used by operators who can't get better average speeds out of their system, typically due to acceleration/deceleration and particularly dwells.

A car journey is comparable competition because it can also stop at any of the same points along the journey.

Those semi-express buses were introduced when the trams were still running, so it would be interesting to know how they compared time-wise.

There was also the issue that many buses would have been full within the express catchment areas, so even an all-stopper would not have been able to pick up passengers. This was "solved" by shortworking services along many routes. Passngers using Rosebery line replacement buses had about eight route numbers to remember.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:29 am

Linto63 wrote:An express service from La Perouse would have been quicker than the all shacks, but with only one track, it would have ended up running into one of the latter, so there was little point.

Well no actually. The trams took 48 to 50 minutes between La Perouse and say Hunter St, stopping at all stops. The X94 and L94 take about the same time or little better than this (and take longer in peaks) while missing a whole lot of stops in order to achieve even that. The previous tram system was also a rapid transit system in many respects (quick journeys, all stops).

Australians have become so accustomed to the express vs all stops method (a relatively modern operating method in this country) that - apart from the Perth modernisation (and few people from the east coast are familiar with Perth transit) and Sydney Metro - they've completely forgotten what the alternative is like. This has become concreted into a mindset that we must have express for longer distances and all stops for shorter distances and bugger the people out in the distance who need stops missed by the expresses, plus the associated mindset that having all stops for distances is transport heresy etc etc. I'm figuratively turning the transport garbage bin of ideas upside down here to get people thinking outside that fossilised square.

As a side note, while checking Keenan for the tram times and the rather sparse timetables for the L and X 94, I came across Keenan's list of evening peak loadings for trams on the La Perouse line in July 1935 and it is staggering. There were trams every one or two minutes over a two hour period, the majority of them coupled sets with anything from 50 to 150, sometimes over 200 people on board. They split off alternatingly to Clovelly, Coogee, Maroubra Beach, Malabar and La Perouse. The ones running through to La Perouse varied from 5 to 15 minute intervals. When you see this, it really brings home what a pale shadow of the capacity and frequency the replacement bus services are and the bankruptcy of the "buses can do the job" thinking that prevailed for many years. All of those lost passengers are driving cars. What happened with the trams is one factor that drives my support for the metro. Never again must we slaughter capacity like that, it's a horrible mistake.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Linto63 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:17 am

tonyp wrote:Well no actually. The trams took 48 to 50 minutes between La Perouse and say Hunter St, stopping at all stops. The X94 and L94 take about the same time or little better than this (and take longer in peaks) while missing a whole lot of stops in order to achieve even that.
Talk about an apples and oranges comparison; a 1950s tram timetable to a bus timetable from 60 years later, there are so many factors that have changed to make the comparison meaningless. For a meaningful comparison, needs to be in a like-for like environment, so an express tram vs an all stops (of which there were none of the former, so a moot point) or comparing a current day 394 to a X94.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Aurora » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:57 am

BanksfielderIdiot823 wrote:The distance between Town Hall and future Pitt Street Stations means nothing to an able-bodied man or woman. But to a less mobile one, it's horrible. Be very glad that a whole lot of you still have functioning legs. It's actually worse if their destination is Museum, St James or Circular Quay.

And anyone that takes it as a whinge neither lives or ever lived on the Bankstown Line particularly west of Bankstown, nor commutes on it on a daily basis. By the way, nobody on this line was consulted about this prior to its approval, except for apartment-tropolis Canterbury. But then again, nope. None of it will matter to the mass able-bodied commuters from other areas along with the latte-sipping millennials who'll just knock the elderly commuters out of their way and drastically complain when their train is just 5 minutes late.

Too many people use Town Hall station, it is over capacity, particularly in the peak and other alternatives have been desperately needed for 10-15 years now. It is one place that could really use the help of a drop in passenger numbers to make the station more sustainable. There is no capacity for any extensions there so other options are required as soon as possible. If they are so desperate to go to Town Hall station, people can change at Central. With our population growth, interchanges are going to be an increasing reality.

If we did not build alternatives to stations simply because of inconvenience to a section of people the city would be at a standstill.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Aurora » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:07 am

Transtopic wrote:The government makes great play about the metro having a potential frequency of 30tph or more, but I don't think this could ever be justified without branches feeding through the CBD core. The outer limits of the current line to Rouse Hill and Bankstown could never warrant a frequency of 30tph alone and I think that it was always intended that further branches outside the CBD core would be added later.

However, this brings into question whether it is practicable to cut into the existing metro tunnels for a branch line, without causing major disruption to existing metro services at some future date. There are currently no stub tunnels for future branches proposed on the metro lines now under construction. That includes provision for a future Parramatta to Epping metro line, where stub tunnels on Metro Northwest at Epping, although initially proposed, were eliminated in the final design. I have discussed this issue at length on another forum and no one has yet been able to confirm whether it is feasible.

In discussion about a future rail link to the Northern Beaches, where it was assumed that it would branch from the metro line now under construction at Victoria Cross (North Sydney), I suggested an alternative solution if branching at that point is not feasible. But be warned, it won't satisfy the metro purists.

No branches full stop. That is why Sydney Trains often has issues with delays spreading across the network. Metros usually have independent lines and there is good reason for it. Short working can always be introduced as required if there are capacity issues around the CBD/Macq Park/Sydenham. Issue solved without disruption.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:13 am

Linto63 wrote:Talk about an apples and oranges comparison; a 1950s tram timetable to a bus timetable from 60 years later, there are so many factors that have changed to make the comparison meaningless. For a meaningful comparison, needs to be in a like-for like environment, so an express tram vs an all stops (of which there were none of the former, so a moot point) or comparing a current day 394 to a X94.

I don't accept your rationale there, but in any case last time I looked at DGT timetables, the running times to La Perouse were little different from what they are now. The traffic conditions are possibly better in a way now because of modern traffic management. I think we can accept that an express tram would have been faster with an express track, but what's the point when the all-stops is already quick? Which residents/workers/students along the line are you going to prioritise for a fast trip and which ones are you going to leave in the lurch?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby boronia » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:31 am

BanksfielderIdiot823 wrote:How many times does it have to be forgotten that ABLE-BODIED people are not the only patrons on the trains, but so are the elderly and less mobile?!? Particularly on the Bankstown line. And before anybody wants to throw the call at me to get my facts right, I was born, lived and grew up on the Banko, both IN Bankstown and in the Fairfield area which covers Villawood down to Cabramatta. I know very well what I'm talking about.

The distance between Town Hall and future Pitt Street Stations means nothing to an able-bodied man or woman. But to a less mobile one, it's horrible. Be very glad that a whole lot of you still have functioning legs. It's actually worse if their destination is Museum, St James or Circular Quay.

And anyone that takes it as a whinge neither lives or ever lived on the Bankstown Line particularly west of Bankstown, nor commutes on it on a daily basis. By the way, nobody on this line was consulted about this prior to its approval, except for apartment-tropolis Canterbury. But then again, nope. None of it will matter to the mass able-bodied commuters from other areas along with the latte-sipping millennials who'll just knock the elderly commuters out of their way and drastically complain when their train is just 5 minutes late.

The only best thing that can happen to this line now is that proposed City via Lidcombe diversion (i.e. the old Inner West Line, sort of.) during the December shutdown becomes the permanent result following the Metro opening.


Gee, it is one very short block between the two stations. 99+% of train travellers would not be terminating their commute within 50 metres of Town Hall (or any other destination station), so they could still have to walk some considerable distance. For some pax, the Park St/Bathurst street entrances might mean LESS walking to their destination? You cannot tailor transport to every single individual passenger, regardless of capability. They provide ramps, escalators and lifts to get people on/off trains/platforms to/from street level, but how far should their responsibility be extended beyond that?

These problems are not specific to the Bankstown line, but people in other areas have coped for years. You consider your own needs, but not other people's?

With "public consultation", you survey 500 people and you get 500 expectations for services to meet their specific (and often infrequent) needs, not for the needs of the other thousand of travellers (which can be determined from Opal data).
Last edited by boronia on Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:00 pm

Some developer will end up building a pedestrian tunnel between the two stations.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby boronia » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:10 pm

There is already a tunnel that goes most of the way to Pitt St under the Galleries building, so it should not be hard to connect. But that might be further to walk than at ground level.

But these shortsighted "Save the T3 line" protagonists don't want to look beyond their own misguided interests.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Linto63 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:24 pm

tonyp wrote:I don't accept your rationale there, but in any case last time I looked at DGT timetables, the running times to La Perouse were little different from what they are now. The traffic conditions are possibly better in a way now because of modern traffic management.
For a meaningful comparison, there needs to be a reasonable amount in common, So much has changed, road conditions, traffic levels etc. The traffic management is superior, but the amount of traffic to be managed back then was far less than today, far fewer traffic lights for example.
tonyp wrote:Which residents/workers/students along the line are you going to prioritise for a fast trip and which ones are you going to leave in the lurch?
If you are going to having limited stops services, the line has to be drawn somewhere, bit like the train traveller from Heathcote, Kingswood or Mount Kuring-gai who has to catch the all stops while those one stop further back have the benefit of limited stops services, luck of the draw.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby moa999 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:34 pm

boronia wrote:But these shortsighted "Save the T3 line" protagonists don't want to look beyond their own misguided interests.


Exactly and what if they are going to Barangaroo, much of North Sydney or Chatswood - the Metro will be far more convenient and quicker, as well as far more frequent to most of the T3 stations, yet of course winners are generally nowhere near as vocal.

Not to mention the substantial capacity it creates on the T2 and T8 lines.

From a whole of Sydney perspective the line is simply a massive benefit.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:42 pm

Linto63 wrote:If you are going to having limited stops services, the line has to be drawn somewhere, bit like the train traveller from Heathcote, Kingswood or Mount Kuring-gai who has to catch the all stops while those one stop further back have the benefit of limited stops services, luck of the draw.

That's exactly the situation that the metro overcomes, without loss of journey time for those who would have a semi-express journey in a two-tier system. Indeed it offers them an even quicker journey as well.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby neilrex » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:07 am

It is absurd to claim that an all-stops metro from Kingswood to Central would be quicker than any of the current stopping patterns.

Have you ever actually caught an all-stops train to Penrith. It's pretty dire. Even worse than all stops to Mt Kuringgai.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:20 am

neilrex wrote:It is absurd to claim that an all-stops metro from Kingswood to Central would be quicker than any of the current stopping patterns.

Have you ever actually caught an all-stops train to Penrith. It's pretty dire. Even worse than all stops to Mt Kuringgai.

I think in a clean-sheet scenario where you are assessing the merits of all-stops rapid transit against the stop-skipping suburban mode, the planners would be determining the optimum crossover points in the journey time/convenience equation (note that I say "journey time", not "distance", a critical point). It does seem from all the Sydney examples that this might occur around the 45-50 km mark, up to which the rapid transit model amply holds its own. This would equate to roughly the outer limits of Berowra-Schofields-St Marys-Macquarie Fields-Helensburgh. Of these, it can be seen that the two significant candidates for continuation of double decker services are the outer western line and the outer southern line.

Even then the rapid transit model challenges this (even out at Emu Plains for example, see table below), but at the metropolitan perimeters there are other factors worth considering such as blending these outer suburban expresses with interurban services (e.g suburban services that express out to St Marys and then all stops to Springwood, alternating with express to Penrith and all stops to Lithgow).

Sydney Metro:
Tallawong-Marrickville: 20 stops, 62 mins (57 km/h)

Sydney Suburban:

Emu Plains-Central::
21 stops, 75 mins (46 km/h)
(semi-express between Granville and Redfern)
E 14 stops, 66 mins (52 km/h)
(semi-express between Seven Hills and Redfern)
ICE 4 stops, 55 mins (63 km/h)
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Linto63 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:17 pm

And as has been said a thousand times before, the Metro operating on a 21st century built, relatively straight line with no interface with other lines is always going to have the wood on a steam era line that has to work in with other lines and trains operating with different stopping patterns.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Swift » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:07 pm

The Hills got a world class system to make up for decades without any.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:39 pm

Linto63 wrote:And as has been said a thousand times before, the Metro operating on a 21st century built, relatively straight line with no interface with other lines is always going to have the wood on a steam era line that has to work in with other lines and trains operating with different stopping patterns.

I wrote: "in a clean sheet scenario". That is, if there was the opportunity to start all over again. Obviously the present reality is that the suburban operation is hampered by being tangled up in itself, though actually the lines in these comparisons are in fact pretty straight and rebuilt over the years to modern standards. The metro has a significant dog's leg through the CBD plus The Bob Carr Memorial Curve under Lane Cove River.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Transtopic » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:18 pm

tonyp wrote:
Linto63 wrote:And as has been said a thousand times before, the Metro operating on a 21st century built, relatively straight line with no interface with other lines is always going to have the wood on a steam era line that has to work in with other lines and trains operating with different stopping patterns.

I wrote: "in a clean sheet scenario". That is, if there was the opportunity to start all over again. Obviously the present reality is that the suburban operation is hampered by being tangled up in itself, though actually the lines in these comparisons are in fact pretty straight and rebuilt over the years to modern standards. The metro has a significant dog's leg through the CBD plus The Bob Carr Memorial Curve under Lane Cove River.
And the whole point of this discussion is? We don't have a clean sheet and it's time that this fact was acknowledged and future rail services, in whatever format, are planned accordingly.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:29 am

Transtopic wrote:And the whole point of this discussion is?

In answer to neilrex's query about how far you can go with an all-stops trains. The answer is probably up to about the 45-50 km mark, which would be less than an hour by metro (about 50-55 minutes).
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Transtopic » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:11 pm

tonyp wrote:
Transtopic wrote:And the whole point of this discussion is?

In answer to neilrex's query about how far you can go with an all-stops trains. The answer is probably up to about the 45-50 km mark, which would be less than an hour by metro (about 50-55 minutes).
A nice side-step Tony. You're comparing apples with oranges. Now on the other hand, if you compared an express DD service with an all-stops DD service, which is more relevant, then the former would clearly be much faster. Equally an express metro (if there is such a beast) would be much faster than an all-stops metro service. That's a more valid comparison.

Sure, you've made the point that the new metro is superior in terms of travel time compared with existing DD services over equivalent distances and stopping patterns, but at the same time choose to ignore the fact that there is still significant potential to improve the latter, which is operating below its frequency and capacity level, with further signalling upgrading including ATO. Unless the whole of the Sydney suburban rail system is converted to metro operation, which is clearly not feasible and unaffordable, then your argument is vacuous. Just accept that we have what we have without trying to re-invent the wheel (a clean sheet) and instead lobby for upgrading the existing system to realise its full potential. New rail lines, particularly in the inner and middle ring suburbs are an entirely different matter, where metro would be the preferred option.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:11 am

Transtopic wrote:A nice side-step Tony. You're comparing apples with oranges. Now on the other hand, if you compared an express DD service with an all-stops DD service, which is more relevant, then the former would clearly be much faster. Equally an express metro (if there is such a beast) would be much faster than an all-stops metro service. That's a more valid comparison.

Sure, you've made the point that the new metro is superior in terms of travel time compared with existing DD services over equivalent distances and stopping patterns, but at the same time choose to ignore the fact that there is still significant potential to improve the latter, which is operating below its frequency and capacity level, with further signalling upgrading including ATO. Unless the whole of the Sydney suburban rail system is converted to metro operation, which is clearly not feasible and unaffordable, then your argument is vacuous. Just accept that we have what we have without trying to re-invent the wheel (a clean sheet) and instead lobby for upgrading the existing system to realise its full potential. New rail lines, particularly in the inner and middle ring suburbs are an entirely different matter, where metro would be the preferred option.

Huh? I answered a question about what distance all-stops services might be feasible. I wrote 45-50 km and gave the time that an all-stops metro would take to traverse this distance. A suburban service would presently take about 10-15 minutes longer and certainly this could be improved with better technology, but perhaps not as much, as these figures including the much-vaunted exemplar of Paris RER Line A indicate:

58 km (E=skipping stops train; ICE=intercity express train):

Perth:
Rockingham-Warwick: all 12 stops, 47 min (71 km/h)

Sydney Metro:
Tallawong-Marrickville: all 20 stops, 62 mins (57 km/h)

Sydney Suburban:

Emu Plains-Central::
21 stops, 75 mins (46 km/h)
(semi-express between Granville and Redfern)
E 14 stops, 66 mins (52 km/h)
(semi-express between Seven Hills and Redfern)
ICE 4 stops, 55 mins (63 km/h)

Paris RER Line A:
Marne-la-Vallee – St-Germain: 22 stops, 72 mins (49 km/h)
(two skipped stops)


It appears from Paris there that an extra door in each carriage and superior, more modern signalling doesn't actually make much difference to a modern double deck service - they're intrinsically slower than a modern single deck service. The main benefit of these improvements is to enable them to run at closer headways - down to 2 minutes, dropping back to 3 and a couple of skipped stops for some services for occasional "breathers" in order to help maintain the momentum. Sydney Trains have already managed to achieve 3 minute headways in some situations.

You continue to ignore the point of the greater customer amenity of all-stops services (and incidentally the benefits for urban development). The rapid transit model (of which Perth and Sydney Metro are the two local examples) has this advantage while outperforming even any type of semi-express double deck service. The most expressy double deck services serve as few as three or four stops in order to outperform all-stops rapid transit. That's great for the commuters using only those few stops, but pretty abysmal for the rest. I do believe those express double deck services should remain on the two longest lines (West and South) because they also have a role feeding the interurban area beyond.

However, the Sydney metro system does have a definite role over long distances not far short of this because (like its Perth counterpart) it has the enormous amenity of all-stops, without sacrifice of journey time. This is the point you continually ignore in your argument that it shouldn't be serving outer suburbs but should be confined to inner/middle suburbs. In fact, one can perversely argue that it's better over long distances than short ones because the further it goes, the better it gets. At the other end of the spectrum, converting the Bankstown line to metro is only going to deliver about five or so minutes saving of travel time (there are other benefits from the conversion). In the average commuter's daily scheme of things, this is not a significant difference. So I would argue that from the journey-time perspective (leaving aside capacity and other issues), we might as well leave the inner and middle suburbs to be served by the suburban system because there's not a huge benefit in conversion. They're only a little bit slower than their metro and interstate counterparts.

13 km segment:

Perth:
Perth-Mosman Park (13.5 km): 11 stops, 21 minutes (38 km/h)
Perth-Beckenham (13.8 km): 9 stops, 19 minutes (43 km/h)
Perth-East Guildford (14 km): 11 stops, 20 minutes (42 km/h)

Sydney Metro:
Sydenham-Bankstown (13.4 km): 9 stops, 21 minutes (projected time) (38 km/h)

Sydney Suburban:
Central-Homebush (12.7 km): 11 stops, 27 minutes (28 km/h)
Sydenham-Bankstown (13.4 km): 9 stops, 25 minutes (32 km/h)
Tempe-Bondi Junction (13.1 km): 7 stops, 25 minutes (31 km/h)

Melbourne:
Upfield-Royal Park (13.4 km): 9 stops, 20 minutes (40 km/h)
Box Hill – Richmond (12.5 km): 11 stops, 22 minutes (34 km/h)
Richmond – Bentleigh (12.7 km): 9 stops, 22 minutes (34 km/h)
Jacana – North Melbourne (13.7 km): 10 stops, 24 minutes (34 km/h)
Jolimont – Rosanna (12.9 km): 13 stops, 26 minutes (29 km/h)
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Linto63 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:57 am

I think the point is that just everybody accepts that for a number of reasons that point to point, the metro is faster, but the reality (as opposed to the fantasy) is that Sydney is a predominantly a double decker network and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

You have made the point numerous times and as I said in another thread, we are probably now at the point where no matter how many times it is said, those who do not agree with your opinion are unlikely to be convinced, so perhaps its time to stop beating the same drum?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby tonyp » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:49 am

I've never argued that the suburban network as it stands is not going to be in place for many decades ahead, that's obvious. The potential for any conversion beyond the Bankstown line is very limited. What I'm arguing against is the proposition put forward by some folk that the metro is not for long distances, that it "has to be" a short to medium distance technology. That's just rigid textbook thinking that's not supported by the real-life operational evidence.

I'm saying that this type of rapid transit technology is ideal for sprawling Australian cities for a number of reasons including capacity, journey time and stopping convenience. In Perth they were lucky enough to convert their whole system to this method. In Sydney that's not going to happen for practical and financial reasons, but that's no reason to oppose new rapid transit lines right across the metropolis.

I am frustrated though that I was born too early, during that seventy year hiatus when nothing was done except patch-up stuff (though glad to experience the old tram system while it was there) and won't be around long enough to enjoy the exciting times ahead for Sydney's public transport and its two new modes. The younger ones have plenty to look forward to!
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Postby Swift » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:16 am

The young ones didn't get to enjoy Hunters Hill Bus Company in it's halcyon days either. I only got to see the end of it and enjoy a decade of growing up seeing some stragglers in the livery.
Sydney I don't like you. Your shallow and full of scoundrels. It needs a major shake up.
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