Youth Parliament - Transport/Infrastructure Bill

[willb2107]

Hello,

My name is Will and I am on the NSW YP Transport/Infrastructure team.

This year, we are working towards a bill idea to integrate cycling with Sydney's Public Transport system, and would like to hear some of your thoughts with our progress. We are yet to write clauses and can make amendments, which is why I am posting here to hear your ideas.

What we have come up with:

TRAINS

a. Following royal ascent of the bill, it will be mandatory to have adequate cycling racks and stowage areas at ALL Cityrail stations, with the amount depending on passenger numbers.

b. Said racks or stowage areas would be promoted and adequately advertised.

c. The current fee for taking bicycles on trains during peak hour would be abolished.

d. Cycling stowage and racks would be installed at major Countrylink stations, as well as clause 5B for Countrylink stations.

FERRIES

a. Following royal ascent of the bill, bicycles would be promoted as a sustainable form of transport on ferries.

b. There will be places on all ferries for bike stowage similar to services on the Manly Ferry.

c. There would be bike racks and stowage areas installed at all Sydney and Newcastle/Stockton wharves.

BUSES

a. Following Royal Ascent of the bill, at least two (2) cycling racks would be installed upon the construction of all new bus stops.

b. Cycling racks would be installed at interchanges.

c. Cycling racks would be installed at bus stops where survey results show that 15% of the township population cycles or would have the intent to cycle with sufficient infrastructure installed.

d. Following trials, bicycle racks would be installed on the front of buses after the Opal Card Roll-Out in 2014, progressively across the STA fleet upon refurbishment.

e. The bicycle racks mentioned in clause d would be operated by passengers, whereas they would place the bicycle on the rack or stowage area. These would be upon the front of the bus.



Thanks for your time - Feedback would be well welcome as we need more ideas, amendments and so on.

[simonl]

Aren't there bigger fish to fry?

I disagree with this:

c. The current fee for taking bicycles on trains during peak hour would be abolished.

[eddy]

Tell them we need an exemption to carry passengers in the speed limited freeride trailer http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... revstart=0 as the first step in perhaps running them from north of the harbour to Mascot

[Newcastle Flyer]

More about the title at the end.

c. The current fee for taking bicycles on trains during peak hour would be abolished.

So why shouldn't passengers with bikes pay the adult fare of how many seats their bikes take up at all times, plus the normal person fare?

Aren't there bigger fish to fry?

Yep!

And NO for any form of bike rack on buses, it takes up too much time. If you want a push bike, get on it & ride it!

I hope I don't alert you-know-who, but I believe you support ripping up the Newcastle - Broadmeadow rail line - forget any support.

Willb, when I looked at this thread, I thought it was about public transport, and improving public transport, but when you open it, it is only a rave about getting bikes on public transport and at public transport stops, not what you have titled it.

Why didn't you title it correctly to something like "Youth Parliament - We want bikes allowed on all Transport" or similar wording, or better still, the "I wish to propose a Clover Bike Bill", instead of your title: "Youth Parliament - Transport/Infrastructure Bill"?

[simonl]

I believe you support ripping up the Newcastle - Broadmeadow rail line - forget any support.

I don't remember saying one way or the other. I'm not really familiar with Newcastle, so I'm not inclined to comment.

[Andrew]

I don't think Newcastle Flyer is talking to you there simonl

[Andrew]

My name is Will and I am on the NSW YP Transport/Infrastructure team.

Hi Will, please tell us what else the Transport/Infrastructure team have on their books....

I appreciate that at the moment you're concentrating on integrating cycling with public transport, but giving us some more details on other projects may help put your current query/ideas into some more context and we can in turn supply you with better comments.

[gld59]

Mainly nitpicks from me, I'm afraid.

Wrong words - "assent to", not "ascent of".

Your bills appear to have no provision for transition. (It's a concept with which most politicians have trouble. "Real" parliaments have enough specialist drafting people to knock most of those bugs out of a bill before it's passed, but you should probably be at least aware of such issues before you ever take up a political career.) Eg,

Following royal ascent of the bill, it will be mandatory to have

- does this mean stuff has to be there the next day? within 6 months? a year?

As to the actual substance, I'd agree that peak hour fares for bicycles should remain - space on peak hour pt is a limited resource. More important would be better provision for bicycles eg luggage areas with hooks in end vestibules, so bicycles can better fit in there.

Racks might have worked well in the 60s and 70s, but unfortunately you'd probably need lockers these days (as in fact exist at some stations). Maintenance then becomes an important issue, as well as making sure the things remain available for legitimate use. BicycleNSW may be a good contact point for such stuff.

gld

[Newcastle Flyer]

I don't think Newcastle Flyer is talking to you there simonl

No, Newcastle Flyer was not talking to Simonl.

But as said before, I thought it was about improving public transport, such as frequencies (where needed), and possibly the "North West Rail Line" & so on.

Hi Will, please tell us what else the Transport/Infrastructure team have on their books....

Yes, please do.

[lunchbox]

What, exactly, is the "NSW Youth Parliament"?
More specifically, what does it do?

[Fleet Lists]

See http://www.ymcasydney.org/activity/youth-parliament Just google and you will find.

[1whoknows]

Can all bicycle riding turkeys please just ride the bloody things and keep them OFF of public transport - either that or pay double for the privelage.

[willb2107]

Wow....where do I begin:


Addressing Questions:

1. Aren't there bigger fish to fry?

- Well of course there are. If we could get the second airport for Sydney, abolish the AirportLink Fee, build the NWRL, PERL, Northern Beaches rail link, Second harbour crossing, then of course we would. But those ideas are ridiculously expensive, and difficult to implement.

- Secondly, what we have to do is pass these bills through the Government. To do so, we need something with initiative but reason, and we need to have the means to do so. If something is deemed to costly it will be shot down immediately.

2. Tell us what else the T/I team had on their books.

Sure, we had two other bill ideas:

- Electronic bus timetabling at all interchanges and significant overhaul of all timetabling (too lengthy to go into more detail)

- Free Uniformed Travel for students, which was amended into using an ID card for free Student Travel to work with the upcoming OPAL system so students wouldn't have to have several different bus passes/train passes/ferry passes, plastic and other materials saved and so on.

BOTH of these were shot down by our Committee Leaders for being either too expensive, too difficult to implement, or too unlikely to be passed through government.

Other Notes

I personally think that many of you have come across as cynical and agressive, whether intentional or unintentional. We are doing this because it is what we love, and all I was doing was looking for some constructive criticism instead of destructive cynicism. Please understand that us 17-18 year olds are trying to find problems in the current system orstatus quo and trying to come up with solutions. We saw that cycling is poorly integrated in the network and for Sydney's transport system to improve cycling integration should be addressed.

I think that it is easy for you sitting in front of your computers from around the country to make personal attacks (I'm looking at you Newcastle Flyer) or aggressive remarks against our ideas, when realistically, we are on a transport forum and what I was trying to achieve was to gain research and understanding from people in the industry or people who involve themselves in the industry. I was not expecting such a harsh response.

Responding to Constructive Criticism

Response to clause 5C was met with criticism, regarding the bike fee.

Our stance on the team is that paying a child ticket is ridiculous and does not adequately cater for cyclists.

We were searching for an alternative so I came here, and in the meantime we wrote it as we were going to abolish it. I personally think it has a good essence or meaning, but bad execution. Changing the current train vestibule to accommodate bikes is far too difficult and expensive, so we cannot do that.


REMEMBER: We are looking for constructive criticism or amendments. We are trying to do our best with the means we have to make a change and please remember that's all we are trying to do before you write a response.

[VivalaBuses]

Will,
First off, congratulations on being selected for the Youth Parliament. Just out of curiosity, which seat are you representing?

I think you may have hit snag in regards to bike racks on buses - they are currently being built to 12.5m in length, which is the maximum length allowed. Putting a bike rack will cause it to exceed this length, that is unless future buses are specified to less than 12.5m.

[Newcastle Flyer]

I personally think that many of you have come across as cynical and agressive

I don't see any aggressive posts here, except how you have highlighted "cynical & aggressive.

Please understand that us 17-18 year olds are trying to find problems in the current system orstatus quo and trying to come up with solutions.

Just out of curiosity, which seat are you representing?

I'm not sure if you really "are" in parliament or not, but you are too young to vote unless you are 18 or OVER, and going by how you wrote 17 - 18, suggests that you are under 18, therefore ineligible to vote.

Response to clause 5C was met with criticism, regarding the bike fee

If you want to take on public transport, instead of riding it, then pay for the number of spaces it takes up. And if you do, please don't compare that with wheelchairs.

[VivalaBuses]

Please understand that us 17-18 year olds are trying to find problems in the current system orstatus quo and trying to come up with solutions.

Just out of curiosity, which seat are you representing?

I'm not sure if you really "are" in parliament or not, but you are too young to vote unless you are 18 or OVER, and going by how you wrote 17 - 18, suggests that you are under 18, therefore ineligible to vote.

NF, if you had bothered too look up what the Youth Parliament is, you would've seen that this is only a mock Parliament run by the YMCA for senior students, and you would not be asking whether Will is a sitting member of the real Parliament. Relax, this isn't the real thing.

[Tonymercury]

Hello,

My name is Will and I am on the NSW YP Transport/Infrastructure team.

This year, we are working towards a bill idea to integrate cycling with Sydney's Public Transport system, and would like to hear some of your thoughts with our progress. We are yet to write clauses and can make amendments, which is why I am posting here to hear your ideas.

What we have come up with:

TRAINS

a. Following royal ascent of the bill, it will be mandatory to have adequate cycling racks and stowage areas at ALL Cityrail stations, with the amount depending on passenger numbers.

Or even Royal Assent.

Is there anything else but cycling in the project?

[boronia]

I think you may have hit snag in regards to bike racks on buses - they are currently being built to 12.5m in length, which is the maximum length allowed. Putting a bike rack will cause it to exceed this length, that is unless future buses are specified to less than 12.5m.

So are buses in Canberra built to a shorter length ??

[simonl]

Wow....where do I begin:


Addressing Questions:

1. Aren't there bigger fish to fry?

- Well of course there are. If we could get the second airport for Sydney, abolish the AirportLink Fee, build the NWRL, PERL, Northern Beaches rail link, Second harbour crossing, then of course we would. But those ideas are ridiculously expensive, and difficult to implement.

Those are the smaller fish. The bigger fish are actually getting the system to work properly. e.g. More than 20 years after East Hills-Glenfield we still don't have more than a 30 minute service on it outside of peak hour!

e.g. 2: Central-UNSW buses

e.g. 3: Slow timetable, and timetabling generally

e.g. 4: Lack of mode blind single flag fall fare structure

e.g. 5: 20 minute weekend L90 frequency & 30 minute Sunday L94 frequency

I could go on!

Our stance on the team is that paying a child ticket is ridiculou

Indeed. They should be banned completely from peak hour like in other jurisdictions.

[willb2107]

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention that our bills have to be NSW wide, so we cant just alter electorate-specific or sydney's problems.

[Fleet Lists]

Which in fact will make it just about impossible to implement any of them.

[hornetfig]

Which in fact will make it just about impossible to implement any of them.

Well, if you say "suburban train services" or "electric train services" that kind of implicitly restricts things. Likewise "passenger ferry". But yeah I don't know how anything applicable to "route bus" operations in Griffith transfers to Newcastle, Sydney, Wollongong and vice-versa.

[Irisbus Rider]

Following trials, bicycle racks would be installed on the front of buses after the Opal Card Roll-Out in 2014, progressively across the STA fleet upon refurbishment.

From what I've seen in regards to bike racks, they pose a huge risk to all involved, and the pros and cons must be weighed up.

Whilst the pros are clear, I feel it's important to address the cons.

- It slows the bus service down. Only by 30-60 secs. Negligible maybe, but it has the potential to add up.
- A safety risk for the cyclist. In all bus safety material that the public are exposed to, they are taught to never step in front of the bus at a bus stop. By putting a bike on a bike rack, this flaunts those rules altogether. I have seen firsthand, cyclists stepping onto the road to place a bike onto a bike rack whilst the bus is still in motion pulling into the bus stop, causing the bus to brake suddenly, throwing pax standing in the aisle waiting to get off into the windscreen. Similarly, I have seen cyclists disembarking failing to mention to the driver that they will be collecting their bike, and then stepping out in front of the bus as it pulls out of the stop.
- The depressed rack extends the length of the bus. Big problem for many inner city streets, where buses (particularly buses with longer wheelbases - O405NH) struggle to clear the curb as it is.
- Not all buses may accomodate racks. The design of the bus may not allow for the rack to be installed, as it cannot be mounted anywhere(Dennis Darts here in Canberra are an example of that), or the rack may partially or fully obstruct any lights on the front of the bus.
- Pedestrian collisions will be increasingly fatal. If a pedestrian were hit by a bus at 40-50km/h, they will most likely be hospitalised, and typically recover, but if a pedestrian were hit by a bus with a bike on the bike rack at 40-50km/h, the bike/bike rack will impact them, potentially embedding the handlebar through the skull and the pedal through the torso, and the bike rack breaking their legs, incredibly traumatic for the driver, pax and other people around. With buses running down the left hand lane on busy city strees (George St on a Fri/Sat night comes to mind where drunks and other pedestrians stumble on the road), it is an accident waiting to happen.

'willb2017', I'm glad that you are both taking your role seriously, and taking an active interest in getting opinions other than your own. However, I feel that you should be aspiring to achieve bigger goals rather than what you have listed here. The more diffcult goals may very well be 'ridiculously expensive, and difficult to implement', but they will serve a greater purpose, and not act as some self gratifying accomplishment which was easy to achieve.

[Fireman Sam]

willb2107 - well done for working to improve cycling. Along with walking, it is the best of all forms of transport.

One wouldn't take much notice of Newcastle Flyer. If it isn't a heavy railway, then it is not real transport. The ironic thing is that Newcastle Flyer argues that the Newcastle inner city railway must stay no matter what, but he criticises cycling - yet more than 5 people walk or cycle into Newcastle for every 1 who catches the train.

The difference is that cycling costs next to nothing, whilst the heavy railway costs a fortune to run for a handful of passengers and cuts the city in half...go figure.

[Newcastle Flyer]

Wouldn't take much notice of YOU either!

If it isn't a heavy railway, then it is not real transport.

Where have I said that?

The ironic thing is that Newcastle Flyer argues that the Newcastle inner city railway must stay no matter what, but he criticises cycling - yet more than 5 people walk or cycle into Newcastle for every 1 who catches the train.

That's just using rubbery figures.
Criticising PARTS of cycling, not criticising cycling. their is a difference.

The difference is that cycling costs next to nothing, whilst the heavy railway costs a fortune to run for a handful of passengers and cuts the city in half...go figure.

So we better close Adelaide Station to Mile End/Keswick, as it "really" cuts Adelaide in half, and it has the similar set up, or we better close the O-Bahn, as it "divides" Adelaide in a roughly north-south direction. The Newcastle CBD is south of the rail line, the harbour is north of it. Cutting the city in half, as you falsely claim, would make a railway nearer to Cooks Hill.