Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
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Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
I am looking for some help in trying to positively identify the Leyland Lion placed in service by Cumberland Coaches in May 1972.
The coach, registered mo5801 carried a CCMC 43 seat dual entrance body. The chassis number is supposedly 569596 - I say supposedly as this would indicate a chassis built in 1956, some four years before the Lion concept was born! Obviously this is nonsense, though I don't doubt the accuracy or integrity of those who examined the chassis prior to it being bodied. Indeed, CCMC themselves quoted 569596 as being the only chassis number visible.
There is one 'missing' Lion chassis number, 701419, which I suspect is the same chassis as the supposed 569596. This chassis was exported to Australia, but thus far remains unaccounted for.
Does anyone who examined this chassis know of the engine number of 569596? This might be the necessary link to identification of the real chassis number.
Any help would gratefully received.
The coach, registered mo5801 carried a CCMC 43 seat dual entrance body. The chassis number is supposedly 569596 - I say supposedly as this would indicate a chassis built in 1956, some four years before the Lion concept was born! Obviously this is nonsense, though I don't doubt the accuracy or integrity of those who examined the chassis prior to it being bodied. Indeed, CCMC themselves quoted 569596 as being the only chassis number visible.
There is one 'missing' Lion chassis number, 701419, which I suspect is the same chassis as the supposed 569596. This chassis was exported to Australia, but thus far remains unaccounted for.
Does anyone who examined this chassis know of the engine number of 569596? This might be the necessary link to identification of the real chassis number.
Any help would gratefully received.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Do mean this Leyland Lion with a Leyland Atlantean badge on it I posted this picture quite awhile ago it is from the Leon Batman collection.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
The coach in the photo shows Edwards Coaches on the side - ie it was with Edwards down at Eden on the the South Coast which is a long way from Sydney where Cumberland Coaches operated but the rest of the colour scheme is very much Cumberland.
This information to assist the enquirer who is from England,
This information to assist the enquirer who is from England,
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Thanks guys,
Albion1881 is quite right; it is the same vehicle and I was actually aware of this disposal, but thanks all the same. It is carrying full Cumberland Coaches livery, even including the fleetnumber #42! The only thing that appears to have been changed is the substitution of the word 'Edwards' for 'Cumberland'.
Fleet Lists, I must admit - being a mere Pom! - that I hadn't realised that the two companies' bases were so far apart. Thanks for pointing that one out.
Does anyone happen to know what happened to the Lion after its life with Edwards - and also when that life ended? Is it still lurking around somewhere as a movan, perhaps?
Albion1881 is quite right; it is the same vehicle and I was actually aware of this disposal, but thanks all the same. It is carrying full Cumberland Coaches livery, even including the fleetnumber #42! The only thing that appears to have been changed is the substitution of the word 'Edwards' for 'Cumberland'.
Fleet Lists, I must admit - being a mere Pom! - that I hadn't realised that the two companies' bases were so far apart. Thanks for pointing that one out.
Does anyone happen to know what happened to the Lion after its life with Edwards - and also when that life ended? Is it still lurking around somewhere as a movan, perhaps?
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
There was a couple of Leyland lion coaches with i think it was Sandgate bus coy in Qld as i used to drive one of them with VIP it went from sandgate to Stuarts Nowra then Max Holman bought from them he sold it to Andersons at Albury.It was the original VIP coach there is a picture of it floating around under the heading of Marrickville Bus Lines Holman Not Benny.It had a very early Denning body.Foden-nut wrote:Thanks guys,
Albion1881 is quite right; it is the same vehicle and I was actually aware of this disposal, but thanks all the same. It is carrying full Cumberland Coaches livery, even including the fleetnumber #42! The only thing that appears to have been changed is the substitution of the word 'Edwards' for 'Cumberland'.
Fleet Lists, I must admit - being a mere Pom! - that I hadn't realised that the two companies' bases were so far apart. Thanks for pointing that one out.
Does anyone happen to know what happened to the Lion after its life with Edwards - and also when that life ended? Is it still lurking around somewhere as a movan, perhaps?
HiHO
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
I was not aware that Cumberland used fleet numbers - Edwards did however so I believe that it is an Edwards fleet number and not Cumberland.Foden-nut wrote:Thanks guys,
Albion1881 is quite right; it is the same vehicle and I was actually aware of this disposal, but thanks all the same. It is carrying full Cumberland Coaches livery, even including the fleetnumber #42! The only thing that appears to have been changed is the substitution of the word 'Edwards' for 'Cumberland'.
Fleet Lists, I must admit - being a mere Pom! - that I hadn't realised that the two companies' bases were so far apart. Thanks for pointing that one out.
Does anyone happen to know what happened to the Lion after its life with Edwards - and also when that life ended? Is it still lurking around somewhere as a movan, perhaps?
Living in the Shire.
- ALBION1881
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
I posted this picture back on saturday 1st of august I am not sure how to do view topic but you might find something from who posted on my thread in the NSW section of photos and sounds.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
That refers to http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewt ... 42&t=44359 Foden Nut also replied in that thread so he would have been aware of the information there.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
There are a couple of photos amongst Bruce Harris's slides of this Lion whilst it was still at Cumberland, registered m/o5801, carrying fleet no 42 & a Leyland Lion badge. I'm about to jump on a bus bound for Perth, so unfortunately I'm not in a position to upload the photos at the moment.Fleet Lists wrote:I was not aware that Cumberland used fleet numbers - Edwards did however so I believe that it is an Edwards fleet number and not Cumberland.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Cumberlands Leyland Lion m/o 5801:-
HCVA NSW Metropolitan Operators 05.1973:-
No 42 5801 Ld Lion PSR1/1 CCMC 72.18 RC43D 11.05.1972 UK Diesels.
Note:- The chassis number of m/o 5801 is shown as 569596 but this indicates that the vehicle was built in 1956 and the lion was not developed until 1962, also Leyland did not build 9,596 vehicles during that year, consequently the origins of the vehicle are unknown at the time of printing.
HCVA Publication F1A, NSW Metropolitan Areas, November 1975:-
As per 05.1973 except for Note b.
Note b:- The chassis of this vehicle is something of a mystery. It was acquired from Hills (Dlr) Wollongong. The chassis was probably a Test Bed Model as it carries chassis no 569596 indicating that it was built in 1956 (thence as per 05.1973).
By the June 1981 Edition m/o 5801 had disappeared from the Cumberland listings. GM
HCVA NSW Metropolitan Operators 05.1973:-
No 42 5801 Ld Lion PSR1/1 CCMC 72.18 RC43D 11.05.1972 UK Diesels.
Note:- The chassis number of m/o 5801 is shown as 569596 but this indicates that the vehicle was built in 1956 and the lion was not developed until 1962, also Leyland did not build 9,596 vehicles during that year, consequently the origins of the vehicle are unknown at the time of printing.
HCVA Publication F1A, NSW Metropolitan Areas, November 1975:-
As per 05.1973 except for Note b.
Note b:- The chassis of this vehicle is something of a mystery. It was acquired from Hills (Dlr) Wollongong. The chassis was probably a Test Bed Model as it carries chassis no 569596 indicating that it was built in 1956 (thence as per 05.1973).
By the June 1981 Edition m/o 5801 had disappeared from the Cumberland listings. GM
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Here's the Lion referred to by HiHo that Max Holman operated
Think for yourself, while it's still legal !
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Once again, thanks to all who have responded. At the foot of this posting is an Ian Lynas view of the Lion with Cumberland Coaches, complete with fleet number 42.
The Denning bodied Lion shown with Marrickville (mo223) was one of four that were new to Black & White of Sandgate, Qld and which passed through a stream of operators, its last PSV operator being Doug Lever.
GM's note from the HCVA NSW Metropolitan Operators confirms that the Cumberland chassis number has always been quoted as 569596, which is a nonsense - and that is not meant to be a slur on those who have quoted it! The last seven RHD Lion PSR1/1 chassis formed part of order number 31599, delivered to Leyland Motor Corporation or Leyland Motors Ltd (Australia) - depending which build sheet you look at - in 1967. Four of the chassis had numbers L45184/5/6/7 and the last three 701417/8/9.
L45184 was sold to a private operator who operated as the "Exmouth Express", a small township some 850 miles north of Perth. Does anyone know the actual owner's name, by any chance? The next three chassis were the last for the Western Australian Government Railways Road Service (WAGRRS). All four of these were converted to three axle configuration prior to receiving their bodies (all Freighter [WA]) and whilst the three WAGRRS units were later converted back to two axle, the "Exmouth Express" unit wasn't, even after sale to Roberts of Bunbury, it is believed.
The other three chassis, 701417/8/9, were apparently brought to Australia speculatively, unless the WAGRRS reduced their order from six to three. They languished at Perth, then possibly at Melbourne, for some time before two were bought as a bargain offer in 1970 by Sinclair's B S at Murrumbeena, Vic - see separate thread under the Melbourne/Victoria heading.
The final chassis has never been reported as receiving a body, BUT in 1972 a Leyland chassis was sold by Hills (Wollongong) to Cumberland Coaches of Ermington. They had it bodied by C.C.M.C. A number of Australian enthusiasts have confirmed to me that the chassis was minutely examined for a chassis number, but to no avail. The only number that could be found was the spurious 569596.
As GM states above this could not be; the Lion concept followed the successful introduction of the Leyland Atlantean in 1958, the first Lion (well, the third actually, but that is another story!) was shown at the 1960 Commercial Motor Show in London. The highest chassis number issued in 1956 was 568311, well short of 569596.
It is my firm belief that the so-called 569596 is infact 701419. I know the engine number of 701419 from the build sheet and was curious to know if anyone had recorded the engine number of "569596" - just to see if they matched. So far, no offers - though I realised it was a long shot!
The Denning bodied Lion shown with Marrickville (mo223) was one of four that were new to Black & White of Sandgate, Qld and which passed through a stream of operators, its last PSV operator being Doug Lever.
GM's note from the HCVA NSW Metropolitan Operators confirms that the Cumberland chassis number has always been quoted as 569596, which is a nonsense - and that is not meant to be a slur on those who have quoted it! The last seven RHD Lion PSR1/1 chassis formed part of order number 31599, delivered to Leyland Motor Corporation or Leyland Motors Ltd (Australia) - depending which build sheet you look at - in 1967. Four of the chassis had numbers L45184/5/6/7 and the last three 701417/8/9.
L45184 was sold to a private operator who operated as the "Exmouth Express", a small township some 850 miles north of Perth. Does anyone know the actual owner's name, by any chance? The next three chassis were the last for the Western Australian Government Railways Road Service (WAGRRS). All four of these were converted to three axle configuration prior to receiving their bodies (all Freighter [WA]) and whilst the three WAGRRS units were later converted back to two axle, the "Exmouth Express" unit wasn't, even after sale to Roberts of Bunbury, it is believed.
The other three chassis, 701417/8/9, were apparently brought to Australia speculatively, unless the WAGRRS reduced their order from six to three. They languished at Perth, then possibly at Melbourne, for some time before two were bought as a bargain offer in 1970 by Sinclair's B S at Murrumbeena, Vic - see separate thread under the Melbourne/Victoria heading.
The final chassis has never been reported as receiving a body, BUT in 1972 a Leyland chassis was sold by Hills (Wollongong) to Cumberland Coaches of Ermington. They had it bodied by C.C.M.C. A number of Australian enthusiasts have confirmed to me that the chassis was minutely examined for a chassis number, but to no avail. The only number that could be found was the spurious 569596.
As GM states above this could not be; the Lion concept followed the successful introduction of the Leyland Atlantean in 1958, the first Lion (well, the third actually, but that is another story!) was shown at the 1960 Commercial Motor Show in London. The highest chassis number issued in 1956 was 568311, well short of 569596.
It is my firm belief that the so-called 569596 is infact 701419. I know the engine number of 701419 from the build sheet and was curious to know if anyone had recorded the engine number of "569596" - just to see if they matched. So far, no offers - though I realised it was a long shot!
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Here is another Leyland Lion from the Leon Batman collection.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Here's another of the ex Black & White Lions, this one ex fleet 43
Think for yourself, while it's still legal !
Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
In the HCVA Operator Listings the engine number of each vehicle was generally noted, but in m/o 5801's case the engine number was not given adding to the mystery.
I should imagine in the DMT files at the State Archives at Kingswood this information would be available? GM
I should imagine in the DMT files at the State Archives at Kingswood this information would be available? GM
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
This photo has also been added to the Bus Australia Photo gallery (Leon Batman album) to see if any more information can be forthcoming.ALBION1881 wrote:Do mean this Leyland Lion with a Leyland Atlantean badge on it I posted this picture quite awhile ago it is from the Leon Batman collection.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Quite evidently Messrs Harris & Lynas were standing next to each other at the time, so there's no need to reproduce the Harris shot here.Foden-nut wrote:... At the foot of this posting is an Ian Lynas view of the Lion with Cumberland Coaches, complete with fleet number 42. ...
Fleet Lists, I certainly didn't want to appear to be correcting you on NSW fleet list matters, but thought you'd appreciate the additional gen.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
GM - you have certainly added to the mystery over this chassis with your note about the HCVA Operator Listings. Why wouldn't it have the engine number listed, I wonder? I am not familiar with the 'DMT files at the State Archives at Kingswood', living as I do in England. Is there anyone out there that would be in a position to investigate? I'm not sure whether this would involve a personal visit or whether it can be done by accessing a file over the Interenet? Maybe someone could advise me, please?
Fleet Lists - thanks for adding the photo to the Bus Australia Photo Gallery. If it solves the question I will be eternally grateful !
Finally, Herbert - I wasn't trying to trump your offer, and I certainly had no idea that the view was so similar, I just thought that as I had a photo readily accessible I would post it.
Keep the flow of information going, please, guys.
Fleet Lists - thanks for adding the photo to the Bus Australia Photo Gallery. If it solves the question I will be eternally grateful !
Finally, Herbert - I wasn't trying to trump your offer, and I certainly had no idea that the view was so similar, I just thought that as I had a photo readily accessible I would post it.
Keep the flow of information going, please, guys.
Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Sorry Foden-nut I forgot you are in England.
The New South Wales Department of Motor Transport looked after Bus Registrations in that era.
There would have to be an Engine Number in the records, as I had difficulty registering a VAM Bedford bus in 1975 when they could not locate the engine number. The number they located was nothing like a Bedford Engine Number but it satisfied the Department. I think it had only four digits.
The State Archives are at Kingswood 50kms west of Sydney and are accessable only on a personel basis as far as I am aware.
As I live 100kms North of Sydney I have not persenally visited the Archives.
Maybe somebody has and can tell you the best way to research the information you require. GM
The New South Wales Department of Motor Transport looked after Bus Registrations in that era.
There would have to be an Engine Number in the records, as I had difficulty registering a VAM Bedford bus in 1975 when they could not locate the engine number. The number they located was nothing like a Bedford Engine Number but it satisfied the Department. I think it had only four digits.
The State Archives are at Kingswood 50kms west of Sydney and are accessable only on a personel basis as far as I am aware.
As I live 100kms North of Sydney I have not persenally visited the Archives.
Maybe somebody has and can tell you the best way to research the information you require. GM
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Thanks GM. It is a long swim from here to there!
If anyone is somewhat nearer and could make an enquiry on my behalf it would be much appreciated - or if you know how I can initiate one, that would be better still.
PM me off line if needs be.
If anyone is somewhat nearer and could make an enquiry on my behalf it would be much appreciated - or if you know how I can initiate one, that would be better still.
PM me off line if needs be.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Does anyone know the rego of the Red and White Leyland Lion?ALBION1881 wrote:Here is another Leyland Lion from the Leon Batman collection.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Red & White operated two of the former Black & White Lions. Red & White's #17 was registered NQH.803, whilst #18 was registered NQC.019. I believe the photo shows #18.
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
Thank you. I have used that info to update the information about this bus in our photo gallery, to which I added this photo this morning.
http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pos=-1767
http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pos=-1767
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Re: Cumberland Coaches Leyland Lion
I think the Red & White one above must be 17; here's 18: