WS Airport Metro

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tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

How funny, suddenly everybody wants all stages built at once. This metro idea must be popular. It's quite normal in a funding framework to stage projects. The Macarthur and Tallawong links are already on the books, just waiting their turn in the queue. What's the saying about Rome wasn't built in a day? As for Labor complaining, they didn't even have any serious transport planning objectives for western and southwestern Sydney. The Liberals put the Macarthur line on the books and suddenly Labor wants it straight away.

The only problem with extending the Leppington line is that it would be a slow journey to the Sydney CBD, about an hour. The West Metro, when extended to the WSA and - I'll call the new city Bringelly rather than Aerotropolis! - will deliver a journey of about 40-45 minutes, that's a significant difference, which is one of the great advantages of the metro (rapid transit). The other reason I think they're not rushing forward on a Leppington line extension is that one of the options being considered in citywide metro planning is conversion of the Airport line to metro. That means that a service via Leppington could not directly connect the two airports (without interchange) in any case. While that's up in the air, it's difficult to make a firm decision. I think the Leppington line will definitely extend to Bringelly though. Whether there will be direct services to the east rather than the present interchange at Glenfield remains to be seen.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:03 pm
The only problem with extending the Leppington line is that it would be a slow journey to the Sydney CBD, about an hour. The West Metro, when extended to the WSA and - I'll call the new city Bringelly rather than Aerotropolis! - will deliver a journey of about 40-45 minutes, that's a significant difference, which is one of the great advantages of the metro (rapid transit). The other reason I think they're not rushing forward on a Leppington line extension is that one of the options being considered in citywide metro planning is conversion of the Airport line to metro. That means that a service via Leppington could not directly connect the two airports (without interchange) in any case. While that's up in the air, it's difficult to make a firm decision. I think the Leppington line will definitely extend to Bringelly though. Whether there will be direct services to the east rather than the present interchange at Glenfield remains to be seen.
There's the issue with the ADF and possible issue with National Parks and wildlife if any government ever plan to build any sort of railway line that heads directly east of Glenfield
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:16 pm
There's the issue with the ADF and possible issue with National Parks and wildlife if any government ever plan to build any sort of railway line that heads directly east of Glenfield
There already is a line that heads east from Glenfield, the East Hills line! It's just that trains to and from Leppington don't go along it yet.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

I was talking about a line that connects the main south line at Glenfield with the Bankstown line west of Punchbowl witch involves putting kilometres of high voltage transmission wires underground but they could also extend the all stop Revsby services to Leppington
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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tonyp wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:03 pm
The only problem with extending the Leppington line is that it would be a slow journey to the Sydney CBD, about an hour. The West Metro, when extended to the WSA and - I'll call the new city Bringelly rather than Aerotropolis! - will deliver a journey of about 40-45 minutes, that's a significant difference, which is one of the great advantages of the metro (rapid transit). The other reason I think they're not rushing forward on a Leppington line extension is that one of the options being considered in citywide metro planning is conversion of the Airport line to metro. That means that a service via Leppington could not directly connect the two airports (without interchange) in any case. While that's up in the air, it's difficult to make a firm decision. I think the Leppington line will definitely extend to Bringelly though. Whether there will be direct services to the east rather than the present interchange at Glenfield remains to be seen.
You have overlooked the fact that you're comparing a potential metro journey time with a journey time via the SWRL extension, based on the current journey times of Sydney Trains. You haven't made a more valid comparison between a metro link and a Sydney Trains' link via the SWRL and East Hills Line to the CBD, taking into account the current progressive rollout of ATO across the network over the next decade. This will significantly improve journey times and frequencies, including those on a more direct rail link to and from the BC airport and the CBD. Hell, they could even have PSDs with automatic operation.

ATO will allow the latest rolling stock such as the Waratahs, or even future compatible SD stock, to operate to their maximum design specifications, which is a maximum speed of 130km/h with improved acceleration/deceleration comparable to the current metro trains. So far, this capability has been wasted. Running non-stop on the East Hills Line express tracks up to 130km/h between say Revesby and Sydenham is going to make a severe dent in the journey time between BC and Central. I estimate that it could be as low as 40-45 minutes, which is more than comparable with a metro link via Metro West, which BTW is still likely to be a long way off, so even that is not a valid comparison. In saying that, I still think that the Metro West extension should take precedence over the North/South link from BC to St Marys. The SWRL extension to the BC airport stations shouldn't be ruled out just because it's part of the existing Sydney Trains' network and doesn't fit in with their metro ideology, when it will provide the most immediate benefits for an airport rail connection.

I think you're clutching at straws if you think that the Airport Line, or any other line for that matter, will be converted to metro operation. I would think that after the criticism and compromises which have had to be made on the Bankstown Line metro conversion, there will be little stomach for any other conversions of existing lines. It would be more prudent to focus on providing new segregated metro lines to areas not currently serviced by rail, particularly in the inner cross city regions, rather than duplicating or converting existing rail corridors to metro. I'm sure that would receive widespread community support.

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Transtopic wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:38 pm

You have overlooked the fact that you're comparing a potential metro journey time with a journey time via the SWRL extension, based on the current journey times of Sydney Trains.
No, I calculated by adding together the estimated journey time between Bringelly and Glenfield (added 5 mins to the Leppington line run) and the journey time of the fastest Campbelltown trains between Glenfield and the Sydney CBD. I didn't estimate an additional time between Bringelly and the WSA, but assume that would be another 5 mins. Extension of the Leppington line to Bringelly has been on the books for a long time. It even shows in my 2005 street directory.

Yes, one would hope that the trip along the East Hills line would be faster with new signalling, all assuming that they can fit in the extra train paths.

I think it's a sensible move to start the Bringelly-St Mary's section first as it is an easy way to ensure that a rail link is available when the airport opens, combined with the fact that it's also the freight rail corridor, so the potential is there for that to be in place at that time or shortly thereafter as well. It also helps the three centres to the north to get going.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Stonesourscotty »

All houses in Kingswood have received fliers for the "WS Metro Announcement" this is the second one within a year detailing it.

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Worth reading this again for a refresher - note the predicted low demand for travel between the two airports:

https://www.westernsydneyairport.gov.au ... Report.pdf
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Why don't they extend the Glenfield to Leppington south west rail link to the new airport
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Fleet Lists »

How many times have we been through that even a few posts higher up in this thread? Please not again!!!!!
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Fleet Lists wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:07 am
How many times have we been through that even a few posts higher up in this thread? Please not again!!!!!
Where is the Like or Thank button in this refreshed board? :)

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Re: WS Airport Metro

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tonyp wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:36 am
Worth reading this again for a refresher - note the predicted low demand for travel between the two airports:

https://www.westernsydneyairport.gov.au ... Report.pdf
That made for some interesting reading, thanks! :D

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:54 am
That made for some interesting reading, thanks! :D
Yes, a lot of people come to conclusions without understanding the whole picture.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by J_Busworth »

Makes for a very interesting read, that document. I would concur with most of its outcomes, as it provides a highly comprehensive proposal for the next 20 years worth of rail projects for Western Sydney
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Good news as corridor reservations announced for two paths linking the future Nancy Bird Western Sydney International Airport:

1. Macarthur <-> via Narrallen and Oran Park
2. Leppington <-> via Rossmore on the South West Rail Line (SWRL) section of the T2 Leppington and T5 Cumberland Line

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/corridors/nsrl-swrl

I assume work is also underway in planning the actual stuff that will go through these corridors
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

boxythingy wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Good news as corridor reservations announced for two paths linking the future Nancy Bird Western Sydney International Airport:

1. Macarthur <-> via Narrallen and Oran Park
2. Leppington <-> via Rossmore on the South West Rail Line (SWRL) section of the T2 Leppington and T5 Cumberland Line

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/corridors/nsrl-swrl

I assume work is also underway in planning the actual stuff that will go through these corridors
I still maintain that the SWRL extension should go all the way to the airport station and not just to the Aerotropolis, requiring interchange to reach the airport. It demonstrates the absurdity of having two incompatible rail systems on the outskirts of Sydney, when a single system would allow through running without any interchange. Sheer madness!

As the airport station box will have provision for four platforms, I don't see why two of them couldn't be used for the SWRL extension with the other two for the metro.

I note that there is no mention of the proposed future extension of Metro West from Westmead to the airport and Aerotropolis, although no doubt that will be considered as a separate matter in future planning. If under current plans they are reserving the two spare platforms at the airport station for the Metro West extension, then it follows that if it is extended to the Aerotropolis, then it will be on separate tracks from the North/South metro with separate platforms at the Aerotropolis. That suggests that the Aerotropolis station could have six platforms, also incorporating the SWRL extension. That seems like pure overkill to me, when all it really needs is four platforms like the airport station - two for the metro and two for the SWRL extension.

If it is intended to merge the Metro West extension with the North/South metro between the airport and Aerotropolis, then why not merge the two metro lines north of the airport station and allow the two spare platforms to be utilised by the SWRL extension. It's not as though the two metro lines would warrant a frequency of 30tph each and one line should be more than adequate to accommodate the demand. None of this has been spelt out yet.

Although I expect that tonyp will disagree with me, a SWRL extension to the airport should have greater priority than the North/South metro link to St Marys. The importance of a fast rail link from WSA to the CBD has been downplayed, which is evidenced by prioritising the metro link to St Marys. That's hardly going to be attractive to airport travellers bound for inner city destinations with its slow circuitous route compared with a more direct and faster express route via the SWRL and East Hills Line. It's a huge mistake to assume that WSA will primarily cater for Western Sydney air travellers, even in its early years. I'd even go so far as to say that an express airport rail service from WSA to the CBD via the SWRL and East Hills Line would be more than competitive in terms of journey time with an all stations Metro West rail link once ATO is introduced on the existing network. Heaven forbid, it could even be operated with dedicated compatible SD rolling stock with provision for luggage storage.

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

They're forecasting low demand between WSA and KSA, that's one reason the Leppington line extension stops at Bringelly. The other reason, as you mention, is the overkill of having six tracks through the airport. The two metro lines require four tracks. You can't merge the metro lines as that immediately halves the capacity of each. The whole idea is for separate lines in order to avoid the very problem that the suburban system has with merging lines.

An interesting commentary that also has an interesting comment on the CSELR:

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/art-a ... -transport

Other news:

https://www.railexpress.com.au/corridor ... ort-links/
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by ed24 »

boxythingy wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Good news as corridor reservations announced for two paths linking the future Nancy Bird Western Sydney International Airport:

1. Macarthur <-> via Narrallen and Oran Park
2. Leppington <-> via Rossmore on the South West Rail Line (SWRL) section of the T2 Leppington and T5 Cumberland Line

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/corridors/nsrl-swrl

I assume work is also underway in planning the actual stuff that will go through these corridors
This web page has less detail than the older version published in 2018 - for example the below corridor document - however presumably that was more just for the initial consultation period?
https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/system ... onMaps.pdf

I'm also surprised they still haven't announced the proposed corridor from St Marys to Marsden Park - although the submissions report indicates investigations are underway.

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:46 am
They're forecasting low demand between WSA and KSA, that's one reason the Leppington line extension stops at Bringelly. The other reason, as you mention, is the overkill of having six tracks through the airport. The two metro lines require four tracks. You can't merge the metro lines as that immediately halves the capacity of each. The whole idea is for separate lines in order to avoid the very problem that the suburban system has with merging lines.
I'm well aware of the low demand for travel between WSA and KSA and I wasn't proposing that. I was proposing a direct link between WSA and the CBD via the East Hills Line and Sydenham. It could potentially run as a limited stop express service, stopping all stations to Glenfield, then Revesby (or East Hills if the quad is extended), express to Sydenham, then express to the CBD. It could run via the Illawarra Dive from Erskineville to Sydney Terminal or alternatively to the City Circle and return via the flying junctions. As I mentioned earlier, it could be a compatible SD train with provision for luggage storage for airport passengers. The limited number of passengers who may wish to travel between the airports can interchange to the T8 Airport Line services at Revesby, or potentially East Hills.

In my earlier remarks, I wasn't suggesting six tracks through the airport, as it only has provision for four tracks, but potentially at the Aerotropolis station. The East-West Metro West extension is proposed to run through the airport to the Aerotropolis and if separation of the metro lines is envisaged, then it follows that there would be four tracks between the stations, including four platforms at the Aerotropolis station.

However, the SWRL extension is also proposed to terminate at the Aerotropolis station, which means that there would have to be an additional two platforms with a turnback, bringing it up to a total of six platforms. That's completely unnecessary IMO. What I'm proposing is that the two metro lines be merged north of the airport through to the Aerotropolis which would free up a path for the SWRL extension to continue to the airport station, or even the proposed business park station, where it would terminate. Again I re-iterate the absurdity of having two incompatible rail systems.

I don't buy the argument that the metro lines can't be merged, although it would suit the aspirations of the purists. There's no way that the level of demand would warrant a total of 60tph on two separate metro lines through the airport and Aerotropolis. That's pure fantasyland stuff. A combined metro line at 30tph should be more than enough, considering that it's running through what for the most part will be low density areas, notwithstanding higher density around the stations.

By way of comparison, the Hong Kong MTR Airport Express service, which is half the distance of that between WSA and the CBD, has an average frequency throughout the day of 4tph, rising to 6tph in peak periods. The parallel all stations Tung Chung Line has an average frequency of 7.5-15tph through the densely populated Hong Kong suburbs.

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

As long as they have empty paddocks out there to build on, four tracks between the two centres isn't likely to be an issue. Six tracks probably isn't either but it may be problematic space-wise under the airport. The terminus of the SWRL at Bringelly may well abut that of the West Metro, Bankstown style. I don't think it's going to be a big deal to interchange.

I don't think they should ever merge metro lines. Painful lessons from the suburban system should cause them to shy away from that forever. Perth has gone for separation too, but they're running into challenges as they start to build the additional lines in the long-term plan. Even then they prefer interchange rather than blend services together - e.g. the new Ellenbrook line and the line from Thornlie to Cockburn South. Melbourne is starting separation with its metro tunnel. It's an important principle.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Merc1107 »

Ellenbrook line won't be interchange... They're going to be ramming trains from that and the Airport line down through Perth and along the Freo line. End result is full-length Freo-Midland trains have peak service reduced to 12mins until infrastructure upgrades that are still many years away. It's going to be the undoing of an otherwise very functional network.

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 am
Ellenbrook line won't be interchange... They're going to be ramming trains from that and the Airport line down through Perth and along the Freo line. End result is full-length Freo-Midland trains have peak service reduced to 12mins until infrastructure upgrades that are still many years away. It's going to be the undoing of an otherwise very functional network.
Thanks for that. I knew the Forrestfield line was going to run through, which I thought could be manageable, but formed the impression that Ellenbrook will be interchange at the junction with Midland. Well, there you go! I hope PTA has observed the painful lessons from the east coast systems and their growing problems resulting from lines blending. Amplifying the Midland and Armadale lines would be a big project and difficult where the development squeezes in from both sides around Perth Station. Keep hold of tunnel borers! When did you say WA's next mining boom is due....? :)
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

The North South Rail Line is a passenger rail line connecting St Marys with Macarthur. The line will run from the Main West Line (T1 Western Line) to the Main South Line (T8 Airport and South Line). This rail line will connect to the new Western Sydney Nancy Bird Walton Airport, Aerotropolis and surrounding business areas.

The South West Rail Link Extension will extend the existing passenger rail line from Leppington Station to the Aerotropolis.
Would there be any advantage in running the Cumberland line as a loop service via St Marys once it is connected to this new NSRL?
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boxythingy »

The congestion between Merrylands and Harris Park needs to be resolved first
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... c0e58f9d4d

Western Sydney Aerotropolis rail links: where homes, businesses will be demolished

Tens of thousands of travellers, employees and products will be shipped in and out of the Western Sydney Aerotropolis each day using these three new rail corridors. SEE WHERE THE LINES WILL BE BUILT.
Jake McCallum, NewsLocal State Political Reporter, NewsLocal

July 2, 2020 12:11pm

AAP1:05
Western Sydney Airport train line built by 2026
Supplied video obtained March 10, 2019 of animation of a proposed Metro rail line to the new Western Sydney Airport to be completed in time for the Airport’s opening in 2026. ...
MORE IN newslocal

Tourists, workers and commercial products will be funnelled in and out the Western Sydney Aerotropolis through three new major rail lines — including a major freight link — as the final corridors for the multibillion-dollar rail expansion plan were secured.

The North-South Rail Corridor, dubbed the Sydney Metro Western Sydney Airport project, will stretch from the Western Line at St Mary’s station in an underground metro tunnel to Orchard Hills, before it links to a massive 20km above-ground rail line stretching all the way to the Aerotropolis at Badgerys Creek.

An overview of the rail links.

A second above-ground Sydney Metro Western Sydney Airport line will stretch further south from the Aerotropolis to Oran Park, before it is linked up to the Main South Line with an underground rail to Macarthur station.

The South West Rail Link will be expanded at Leppington through an above ground line to connect to the North South Rail Corridor at Bringelly.

Meanwhile, the Western Sydney Freight Line Corridor will run from the future Outer Sydney Orbital at Luddenham through to the M7 at Horsley Park. From there it will join a future section through Wetherill Park, which will link to the Southern Sydney Freight Line at Leightonfield — connecting to Port Botany.

But not everyone is happy about the corridors selected for the new lines, with Campbelltown state Labor MP Greg Warren raising concerns around the impact the North-South Rail link will have when it tunnels under The Australian Botanical Gardens at Mt Annan.

Diego Bonetto poses for a photo at the Australian Botanic Garden Mt Annan. Picture: Robert Pozo.

“There is no doubt that there needs to be a rail line from the new Western Sydney Airport to Macarthur, but I have serious concerns about what consultation actually occurred with land owners who will have the tunnel beneath their property,” Mr Warren told NewsLocal.

“The Australian Botanic Garden in particular is home to many rare and endangered species and there must be an iron clad guarantee that there will be no detrimental impacts on the garden.

“Anyone can draw a line on a map, that’s the easy part — building a practical and sensible train tunnel is a different story.

“This government has already shown they are willing to destroy 1000 hectares of world heritage area in order to raise the Warragamba Dam wall, so who knows what they’d do to the Australian Botanic Garden in order to build this tunnel.”

He also raised concern around lengthy planning timeline set out for the rail link to the Western Sydney Aerotropolis, which “may not begin for at least another 10 years”.

“This project is a lifetime away from coming to fruition anyway, which is not good news for Macarthur residents,” he said.

Food and wine festival at Australian Botanic Garden, Mt Annan

Transport Minister Andrew Constance argued preserving the corridors for metro and freight links would “pave the way for a significant boost to connectivity in the region”.

“Preserving these corridors for future passenger and freight transport links supports the development of the Western Parkland City, while planning for the needs of growing communities and industries to accommodate commuters, workers and businesses who all rely on different types of transport modes,” Mr Constance said.

A series of above ground and underground rail links will connect the Airport to western and south west Sydney. Picture: Supplied

“Transport will play a huge role in shaping the way our communities move around in years to come, and we want to get this vision right, which is why we have spoken to the community at great length before finalising these future transport links.”

Planning Minister Rob Stokes said the finalised transport links will form the backbone of strategic development in the Western Parkland City.

“These future transport links will offer better connectivity for residents, and provide certainty to drive investment in new employment hubs near the new Western Sydney Airport and broader Aerotropolis,” Mr Stokes said.

Leppington train station in Sydney's south west will have a connection to the Airport. Picture: Toby Zerna

The NSW Government said property owners have been notified about the transport links and further details are being provided to them on acquisitions
The three lines are St Marys to Bringelly, Bringelly to Macarthur (which I would regard as part of the first) and Leppington to Bringelly. The freight link is actually a motorway connecting two motorways, which had me confused because there is supposed to be a rail freight link as well - but this announcement is a road, not rail.

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