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Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:08 pm

And no it's not us. I just saw this infringement on a car, while doing something else.

The question though is this. Is a shopping centre's parking infringement notice invalid or valid, if it does not include the time? The infringement is for a car staying more than the 3 hour maximum. But the notice does not have the time that the centre's security (or whoever) saw the car, nor the time that the infringement was issued. It includes the date, but not the time.

With no time shown on the notice, their is no evidence that this motorist stayed (or did not stay) more than the 3 hour maximum.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby Andrew » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:47 pm

Unless a ticket was issued at the moment the car entered the car park, the exact time(s) is irrelevant. It is when the car was first noted by the patrol, which could have been 30 seconds after its arrival or 5 hours, who knows.

The fact is that after they notied its position in the car park, it was still in that car park at least 3 hours thereafter. It could have been in there for 3hrs and 30 seconds or 8 hours by the time you saw the ticket. The inspector has no way of knowing exactly when the car entered unless a ticket noting that time was produced.

How the inspector knows the length of time the vehicle was stopped is relevant - the two most common ways now are marking tyres with chalk and taking photographs. Whatever way the car park does it is up to them entirely. They may do it by monitoring numberplates on a CCTV camera as cars enter the place and leave....
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby boronia » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:51 pm

This is probably not an infringement notice like you would get from a council or police for parking in the street or council car park.

It is treated as a "breach of contract" with the owner of the property or operator of the car park; if you use the park, you are agreeing to their "terms and condions". There is some doubt as to whether it is legally enforcable, but they will hound the victim into paying with threats of court action.

You will probably find more info on the Fair Trading website.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:53 pm

Thanks for that, that's understandable for both replies, but I still believe the time needs to be shown on the infringement.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby boronia » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:28 pm

Andrew wrote:Unless a ticket was issued at the moment the car entered the car park, the exact time(s) is irrelevant. It is when the car was first noted by the patrol, which could have been 30 seconds after its arrival or 5 hours, who knows.

The fact is that after they notied its position in the car park, it was still in that car park at least 3 hours thereafter. It could have been in there for 3hrs and 30 seconds or 8 hours by the time you saw the ticket. The inspector has no way of knowing exactly when the car entered unless a ticket noting that time was produced.

How the inspector knows the length of time the vehicle was stopped is relevant - the two most common ways now are marking tyres with chalk and taking photographs. Whatever way the car park does it is up to them entirely. They may do it by monitoring numberplates on a CCTV camera as cars enter the place and leave....


Unmetered council/street parking infringements are required to show the approx time the vehicle was first noticed and the time it was infringed. Even on the spot infringements show only an approximate time of the offence.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby boronia » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:33 pm

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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby Andrew » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:54 pm

boronia wrote:Unmetered council/street parking infringements are required to show the approx time the vehicle was first noticed and the time it was infringed. Even on the spot infringements show only an approximate time of the offence.


Councils yes - dodgy Care Park or Australian National Car Parks or whoever it is, unlikely. I think they use CCTV and other surreptitious means for identifying those people that breach the contract they agreed to when entering the car park.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby boronia » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:08 pm

Our local shopping centre has ticketed/paid parking, and also bumper level CCTV cameras at the gates with signs saying NPRT in use. I doubt they would have direct access to the RMS database.

Occasionally I have "doubled up" for the 2 hours free parking by driving out, going around the block and re-entering. Never had any feed back about this practice.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby Andrew » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:15 pm

They may have the NPRT in use and it doesn't necessarily need to be connected to RMS - they aren't checking the car's registered or taking a toll from an electronic account, just noting when the plate enters and leaves I guess if they've gone that far.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby tonyp » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:09 am

I don't know why they don't use the disc parking system in Australia. This is a cardboard clockface that you pick up free in servos or elsewhere and you set the hands or rotate the face to the time you arrive and prop it visible behind the windscreen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_parking

Theoretically you could sneak back and alter it but if it's been read by an inspector before you do this you're in trouble.

When I wrote to the NSW police years ago suggesting it, they rejected it saying it could suffer "mechanical failure". The "mechanical" part is something like a single split pin in the middle! :lol: :roll:
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:24 am

Tonyp, this thread came about due to no time stamped or written on his/her parking infringement notice, not about the motorist displaying XYZ. Oh by the way, he/she had a P-Plate displayed. I would have probably challenged the notice.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby tonyp » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:38 am

Newcastle Flyer wrote:Tonyp, this thread came about due to no time stamped or written on his/her parking infringement notice, not about the motorist displaying XYZ. Oh by the way, he/she had a P-Plate displayed. I would have probably challenged the notice.


..... which is what I addressed.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby boronia » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:30 pm

From the Fair Trading site linked above:
Private car park operators have told us they are contacting all consumers by letter. This letter will outline the location of the car park, the date and time the consumer parked in the car park and why they have received the alleged payment notice. The notice will also detail the registration of the vehicle concerned and the payment notice number. Once you receive the letter, you should consider the information provided before disputing a payment notice.
I would say that if they don't include a time in this notification, you would have cause to dispute the notice. But then again, they could simply resend the letter with a time included. It is not a legal infringement notice, so they are not required to cross all the Ts a dot all the Is for it to be enforceable.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby Dial 000 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:24 pm

Be warned, some shopping centres and fast food chains have a contract with local councils to enforce the parking limits at the locations. In these cases it is a requirement that the correct legal signage is erected at the location. Enforcement Officer either chalks them up or notes valve stem position or uses photographic evidence or if they want a rest just sit and observe for the relevant time period before issuing an infringement through the council system, (which is overseen and enforced by state debt recovery), and compiling his contemperous notes for use in court should they be required.

Answer to original question, depends on who is enforcing limits!
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby ross johnson » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:32 pm

If in doubt re the validity and enforcabilty of the 'ticket', have a yarn to the NRMA and they'll set you right. Sometimes the company concerned is bluffing when chasing you to pay the fine. To be fair though, if there is time limit, in the interests of other users, you shouldn't hog the site.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby johnnysmithson » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Newcastle Flyer wrote:With no time shown on the notice, there is no evidence that this motorist stayed (or did not stay) more than the 3 hour maximum.

If it's a council parking fine, you can take it to court, and when you are served you will receive a brief showing the evidence they have. If it's a private parking fine, such as one from Care Park and you are based in NSW, then the company has no way of getting your name and address from RMS since early this year, so you need not worry about it.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:41 pm

Johnnysmithson, it was not us, he or she had P plates displayed. Pity I didn't see the driver to let them know that it didn't have the time stamped on it. I'm not saying the driver didn't stay for over the 3 hour limit.
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby lunchbox » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:41 pm

I've been issued a penalty notice for parking "a heavy vehicle longer than 1 hour" in a residential street. There are no parking signs at the subject location, but there are 2 hour limits posted in some adjacent streets.
I've never heard of such a general heavy vehicle restriction. Is it common?
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Re: Parking infringements invalid/valid with no time on it?

Postby boronia » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:13 pm

Australian Road Rule 200:
(2) The driver of a heavy vehicle, or long vehicle, must not stop on a length of road in a built-up area for longer than 1 hour, unless the driver is permitted to stop on the length of road for longer than 1 hour by information on or with a traffic control device, or under subrule (2A), (2A-1) or (2A-2).

THis rule has been around in various forms for many years.
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