What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

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What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by Swift »

Bedfords always struck me as a cheap and somewhat nasty choice of bus.They were characterised by having noisy engines that were always struggling up most hills.
As a gunzel I find them to have quite abit of character all their own now but what was the commercial attraction they held for bus operators?
Surely it wasn't only their cheap initial purchase price.Were there other attracticve aspects like parts prices and availability,good after sales service and reliability of the mechanicals?

They made a great bulk of Sydney's private fleets up to the late 1980s and then started to deminish in number during the 1990s.
I had very mixed feeling s toward Bedford's products.I liked any with an Allison Automatic fitted such as Harris Park transport's examples which ran up to the late 1990s ,thanks to their tax induced storage.I wasn't as into the stick shift versions.Nowadays I would consider it quite a trip down memory lane to ride any Bedford .

I was quite surprised to learn that the engines in the last models sold on the Australian market in the late 1970s such as the front engined BLP and the underfloor ones (sorry forget the model designations of those) had 500 cu engines,only a whisker under the Leyland National's 510 and AEC's 505 engines,yet those felt like they had twice the grunt of the Beddy unit!The payoff must have been much better fuel consumption.

Id be very interested to read anyone else's take on the niche Bedford filled in all those years.
Last edited by Swift on Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by BroadGauge »

How many operators still retain Bedfords for school runs? Or is there still anywhere with Bedfords on public services?

I posted a photo of one in Goulburn, NSW a couple of days ago although it did not generate much interest.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by MAN 16.242 »

SomeRobot wrote:How many operators still retain Bedfords for school runs? Or is there still anywhere with Bedfords on public services?

I posted a photo of one in Goulburn, NSW a couple of days ago although it did not generate much interest.
Not many companies have Bedfords left
But a few have them for charter, school runs, or spare buses.

Last used on route in Melbourne I believe was on 606 in 2000.

A few parts bus company's have some in Melbourne
Other company's that I know have them in Victoria is Kings, Colac, Jacobsons Bus Service - Mooroopna, St Arnaud Hamilton,
Most company's would just use them as charter, school runs, or spare buses now.

Purtills, Deniliquin still seem to have a few Bedfords left

As for if there’s any left on Public services I am unable to help you with that.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by Simes »

Sydney Coachlines use beddies on their charters - one's even had a wheelchair lift fitted....
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by Carlisle 8 »

I'm going to take you back to an era before many of our board members were born. I hope that it will be of interest.

Prior to World War II and for some time after it, the average worker in Australia couldn't afford to own a car. Sometime in the 1950's, wage levels began to improve to the extent that the average Joe could buy a car. Prior to that, public transport was used for everything. Trips to the beach, out at night to the pictures, plus anything else. Once car ownership became common, bus use was mainly for taking kids to school, people to work. Bus companies still needed the rolling stock to cater for the peaks, but they lost much of the recreational traffic and thus their profitability.

I can write with authority about W.A., but I suspect that things were pretty much the same in other states. Bus fleets were generally run down. No replacements had been available during the war and replacements were hard to find in the years following the end of the war. Population was increasing, with both the post war baby boom and migration. Thus bus companies found themselves with increasing peak period and school passenger numbers, worn out fleets, plus the previously described profitability problems. Bedfords saved the day! In W.A., it was usually C.A.C. SB's. An article in the local paper reported that a CAC Bedford cost 3,000 pounds, whereas an A.E.C. cost 10,000! So what was a cash strapped company with a desperate need for buses going to buy? Three Bedfords, or one A.E.C.? An absolute "no brainer"!

Bedfords kept many an unprofitable W.A. company in business, until the M.T.T. was formed to run all metropolitan bus services. (The MTT was government owned.)

I have a real soft spot for CAC SB's. They were a quiet and pleasant bus in which to ride, except for their bloody rattling windows! I like the look of them, too.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by VQ »

Cheap intial price back then would also mean cheap running costs, especially if they were common, either way all of them would need lots of work unlike now, where you spend cheap on a bus, you have to do major work on them compared to ones where you spend a more and they last for over 700km's without an issue, not naming any buses though.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by boronia »

Cheap maybe, but definitely not nasty.

Any model's popularity depends on its reputation, so something as popular as a Bedford must have had some good points. Reliability, drivability, low running costs, ease of maintenance, manufacturer's support, all come to mind. They not have been flash, they may not have been flash, but they certainly did the job well in their time.

It is a shame that they could not keep pace with their competitors in a changing market.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by 33 HBS »

When I first started driving buses I had a Bedford YLQ2 with a 500 motor mid mount with a Domino body built in 1981. It was easy to drive and never stopped working. The owner had very little problems with the bus,it did a lot of hours work with school runs, charter work and local route work.The owner bought three new Bedfords and the price he reckons was the reason why he bought them at the time considering he was only a very small operator that had only been in business for only a few years.These buses stayed in the fleet for most of their commercial life and were still good buses when they were sold.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by Mother »

Swifty, you've started a fascinating discussion with some interesting thoughts.

As a young enthusiast, I certainly preferred the AECs and Leylands over the Bedfords, but the latter did indeed have their place.

I'd been fortunate to have known and spoken at length with many private bus operators from the days when you actually knew the person or family for whom you were working.

One of the most common thoughts was that the Bedford was ideal for the sort of feeder bus service that was relatively flat and that did not involve such heavy cross-suburban traffic as Punchbowl and Red Top used to encounter. The Bedford operators agreed that a light and much cheaper bus like the Bedford was perfectly capable of doing the job, especially as it would carry light loads for most of its shift, namely during the off-peak periods.

Bus routes on which these Bedfords were ideal included:-

- Eddie Hayman's Greenacre Bus Service;
- Caringbah Bus Service;
- Warren Try's Merrylands Bus Co;
- Col Sinclair's Ray Road services.

One operator explained to Me that, in the easier traffic situations of the 50s-60s-70s, a Bedford was capable of safe and timely delivery of its passengers, so why spend thousands of dollars more on an AEC or Leyland for the same results, such as the point that Carlisle 8 has made.

There were a few operators whose policy was to turn their fleet over within a few years, so that their passengers would always have a new and well-presented bus. These operators quite reasonably believed that the average passenger is not interested in a Leyland 680 engine or an AEC 505, 590 or 691. Rather, the passenger is interested in safety, punctuality, cleanliness and modern fittings in a well-presented vehicle. Such bus operators were therefore more interested in buying a cheaper Bedford rather than a more expensive heavy-duty unit, as they would be replacing their bus within 5 years anyway, in order to keep a new fleet.

As a result, the Bedfords served operators such as Merrylands Bus Co, Carl Tattam, Colin SInclair and Merv Sinclair very well.

I must say, I do miss Harris Park's underfloor Bedfords with the Alison transmissions. They had a style, sound, smoothness - and pace - that were unique. I'd rather go to Epping on one of those than on those appalling Ryde Volvos.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by Toot »

The Bus Proprietors Association in Victoria even got into selling Bedfords to their members. So it was seen as "doing the right thing" to buy one.

They were marvellous to take out on a school run with a few hills. The braking was better from the gear change down than from the brake pedal!!! Fond memories.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by Simes »

One thing I recall from my casual observations in the 80's and 90's, correct me if I'm wrong but it would seem that an operator would buy a few Leylands (usually Leopard's) and then get a few Bedfords (VAM's?) and the Leopards would be out for most of the day and the Bedfords rolled out to provide the school and extra peak services. Then of course there were some operators who just went one way or the other.

I guess a latter day example could be private operators who purchased a few O405 chassis and a few B10M's around the same time, making their capital expenditure go further.....
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by BT-Otto »

I liked driving Albions (Bayside Buses early-mid 80's).. Are there any still in service in oz ?
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by system improver »

I think the answer is pretty complicated, but I'll give it a go. Some of it has already been given a run. One issue that has not been mentioned is terrain. "Gutless" Bedfords did quite well for the times on flat territory; so Vic, SA and WA were fallow turf.

There were severe import restrictions after WW2 which accounted for a small part of the issue, and so to be fair, the competition was mainly between British and British ( i.e. the US did not get much of a look in despite their superior quality, eg GM). Having said that, this meant that British operators got first pick between Leyland, AEC, Albion and Bedford, and Bedford was not high on the list for most govt operators in UK, so they came here.

As luck would have it, it worked out pretty well for all concerned. There is little doubt that the OB and then the SB saved the private bus industry, and the travelling public, in the 20 years after the war. Cheaper, but not cheap, than bigger chassis, they performed their role with reliability if not speed. When we were able to to move on, we did. But, we owe a debt to Bedford, especially the 932 OBs that CAC made (see my avatar) if I can get personal for a moment.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by boronia »

system improver wrote:I Having said that, this meant that British operators got first pick between Leyland, AEC, Albion and Bedford, and Bedford was not high on the list for most govt operators in UK, so they came here.
Leyland, AEC, Albion (also Guy, Daimler, Foden to a lesser extent)) were heavyweight vehicles and were chosen for high volume commuter operation in the same way they were here. There were a lot of Bedfords used in the UK (with competition from Commer, Ford) in the lighter full size private operator bus market, again mirroring the market here.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by 1whoknows »

Let us not forget that Bedfords also found favour with Government operators as well - some examples being
- the MTT in Tasmania who seemed to be able to run their Beddies around the hilly streets of Hobart, Launceston and Burnie
- the NZRRS who used Bedfords on both suburban and intercity applications for many years.
- the two VAMs that ran (mainly as school buses) for Canberra Bus Service in the pre ACTION days.
- the EDSA school bus fleet in SA which was Bedford (and Austin) based up until around 1980
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by Swift »

Hornsby Bus group ,predesessor to Shorelink actually retrofitted Allison Autos to all their manual Bedfords in the belief that less wear and tear would result due to varying driving habits.It seems Hornsby bus Group was well ahead of it's time in bus operations!
I remember the HBG Bedfords that I caught between Eastwood and Epping were autos and they were the only Bedford VAMs and that model with the axle under the driver (what was that one??)that I know of that had Allisons automatics.
I wish I could go back to that time and ride some again :roll:
The only stick shift Beddies I actually liked were Cumberland /Metro West's Perkins powered VAMs.I always looked forward to the bus reaching that hill northbound on Mardsden Rd Eastwood just before the lights at Stewart st and hearing the driver change down the gears as the hill grew more intense.The Perkins tacked it noticeably better than the Bedford powered ones.To this day I am curious as to wether he went down to 1st or 2nd up that section!
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by Rail Bus »

I wouldn't have a Bedford on my mind! :( They are defintly "cheap and nasty." I think many struggling Private operators in the 60s and 70s got them as they were cheap to run compared to a Leyland or AEC. However in the 90s I saw m then-local operator, Kate & Heath, make the backward step of replacing their Leopards with ex-Harris Park Bedfords. :( Certain Bedfords were always giving trouble, whereas the Leopards, most of the time were only troubled by bad driving tecnique such as 2nd gear take-offs up hills, and flat-changes. The Bedford was said to have had "options." Either a "Going Option" a "Steering Option" or a "Stopping Option," but rarely anymore than one option was fitted.

I'm just glad that I don't have to try and drive & stop the piles of junk. :evil:
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by mrobsessed »

The appeal would have been cheap and reliable. Parts readily available through your local Holden dealership, if you can't fix it with fencing wire! The fuel consumption of a little 330/manual compared to a Leyland 680/pneumo was a third.

Funny those Hornsby Bus Group Bedfords being mentioned. The first bus I drove in service was 5047, an SB with an Allison. I'd love to say that I miss them, but everytime I drive a BX Hino I can't help but think "Japanese Bedford"!
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by gregrudd »

mrobsessed wrote:The appeal would have been cheap and reliable. Parts readily available through your local Holden dealership, if you can't fix it with fencing wire! The fuel consumption of a little 330/manual compared to a Leyland 680/pneumo was a third.

Funny those Hornsby Bus Group Bedfords being mentioned. The first bus I drove in service was 5047, an SB with an Allison. I'd love to say that I miss them, but everytime I drive a BX Hino I can't help but think "Japanese Bedford"!
I always thought that Isuzu was classified as the Japanese Bedford As it was interesting that a lot of Bedford owners went to Isuzu in the late 80's
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by GM »

A lot of Bedffords were repowered with Isuzu Engines as they were superior to the Bedford 500.
The Isuzu was a good bus chassis but was withdrawn by Generous Motors. GM
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by gregrudd »

Rail Bus wrote:I wouldn't have a Bedford on my mind! :( They are defintly "cheap and nasty." I think many struggling Private operators in the 60s and 70s got them as they were cheap to run compared to a Leyland or AEC. However in the 90s I saw m then-local operator, Kate & Heath, make the backward step of replacing their Leopards with ex-Harris Park Bedfords. :( Certain Bedfords were always giving trouble, whereas the Leopards, most of the time were only troubled by bad driving tecnique such as 2nd gear take-offs up hills, and flat-changes. The Bedford was said to have had "options." Either a "Going Option" a "Steering Option" or a "Stopping Option," but rarely anymore than one option was fitted.

I'm just glad that I don't have to try and drive & stop the piles of junk. :evil:

I always thought that Kate & Heath in their later years were an operator that were always trying to do things on the cheap, compared to Baxters which had one of the best presented Bedford fleets in Sydney. In my younger years I always thought how privileged I was to live in the Parks area of Fairfield where we had shiny new Volvo B10M's in the 80's compared to a lot private areas which still had Bedfords.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by GM »

It all depended on the profitability of your service run whether you could afford Bedfords or Volvos. GM
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by ftruck123 »

This conversation has 2 sides, there is the one that is asking and answering some good questions, the other is the 'Ford V Holden', 'my teams better than your team' type of post.
Carlisle 8 raises some vallid points, had Bedfords not been available many poeple would have had to walk because thanks to their price and parts support they in a way helped build the cities we know today.
'Beddies' where easy to work on, it was posable to convert their old petrol engines to diesel, with Holden building and supplying parts you didn't have much down time and for what they where, they where tough.
You could also ask why anyone buys a Ford or Holden today and not a Volvo, Merc or BMW. Just because people do doen't make them shonky.

Last week I priced a VRS, Pistons, Rings and Bearings for a guy who blew a hose and cooked his 330 and it came to just over $1100.00, try buying them for your car for that price! :D
You could change a clutch plate in under 50 minites which is less than a loop around an average suburnban run.
Good business is doing a certain job for the least amount of outlay. not buy the best stuff around, go broke trying to pay for it and leave your customers with nothing.
To lump all bedfords in as 'Cheap and Nasty' and saying they are 'Piles of junk' without justifying the coments sounds childish and narrowminded. :roll: and doesnt realy add to the conversation.
There are good operators and there are bad, if a good operater looks after his gear they will not let him down, Bedford or not. Perhaps the 'Beddies' you had experiance with where not cared for but obviously the fact that alot are still doing the rounds today shows that those that where have lasted.
Bedfords where honest like the Holden Kingswood or the Ford falcon of the bus world. Sure there was nicer equipment on the market but there was nothing wrong with one that was looked after. I'd rather drive a well maintained old Falcon than a neglected beat up jaguar anyday.
You can't really say Bedfords windows rattle because thats the body builder and the window makers area.
If the engines noisey, you only need more deaderning in the engine area.
As for them having 'options', If a Bedford doesn't go quick, Put a 500 and a SMOT box in it, 100kms easy, if it doesn't stop, service the Bisectors and adjust the brake shoes, theres gotta be a problem somewhere because it could throw you from your seat, if you cant stear a roadworthy bus, and I don't mean to be rude, but you might bo better in the passenger seat because from comments made, I get the feeling that some negativerty is from those who only know were the drivers seat is and how to start it. :roll:

Alls I'm trying to say is a Bedford is a good machine that when maintained proberly should do the job it's designed for very well.

Concerning the Gearbox issue, my comments from Friday Nov 09, 2007 might help,
http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewt ... =2&t=26792

I still reckon the best looking bus around was a mid 50's SB Bedford with a CAC body and a wrap around windscreen. :D
In fact if anyone knows of a cheap one for sale, give me a yell. I'd love to restore one :D :D

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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by VQ »

ftruck123 wrote: Last week I priced a VRS, Pistons, Rings and Bearings for a guy who blew a hose and cooked his 330 and it came to just over $1100.00, try buying them for your car for that price! :D

Andy
The mechanic I'm working with got all that for his Austin Healy for under $500. And I'm sure I could get it cheaper for my V6 Volvo even, but I would need to source from the U.S For it.
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Re: What was the appeal of Bedfords to private operators?

Post by Ken »

Redhood wrote:Last used on route in Melbourne I believe was on 606 in 2000.
Sydney naturally trails behind Melbourne in vehicle modernisation :P

The last Bedford operating passenger route service in Sydney was in 2006 (if I remember the year correctly). It was a time when the MoT approved extra services on Westbus/Hillsbus M2 City routes and they did not have sufficient new vehicles delivered at the time to operate these services straight away. As a result Baxters was sub-contracted for a while to operate a number of these services during weekday peak hours. Baxters operated a wide variety of vehicles on these services and one of the vehicles used was an immaculately presented Bedford (MO 8888 from memory). A couple of people from this forum went out of their way to ride this vehicle and I think a pic by Andy Lee may have even been posted of it.

Prior to that it would have been Bustrans/Katen & Heath operating Bedfords on their route services up until their sale in 2004.

Currently in Sydney (as mentioned above) a small number of Bedfords still operate for charter operators most notably Sydney Coachlines.

No doubt there would be the occasional Bedford somewhere around the state still operating school services.

They aren't my favourite type of vehicle, but they certainly have their place in our transport history. As Mother indicated, they were the lifeblood of many companies who didn't require or couldn't justify the cost of a heavier duty chassis.
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