Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state
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tonyp
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by tonyp »

The problem with battery buses is that there are still too many costly compromises. If you load on lots of batteries to give a long range you compromise the interior spaces and functionality of the vehicle as a passenger transit vehicle (typical Chinese electric bus). If you don't compromise the bus it has a shorter range (typical European electric bus). If you install charging infrastructure along the routes and force the buses to continually top up you compromise the operation (dwell time) and increase its cost (infrastructure, power peak costs). The IMC bus has a lot of advantages, while minimising the need for OHW.

Were the European B59s actually low entry or did they still have a step at the front door? I have the recollection that the first low floor (actually low-entry) buses appeared in Germany in the late 1980s and even the Americans were starting to look at them in the early 1990s. By then the Europeans were on to fully low floor. Australian practice has always been extremely conservative and way behind the times and the response you got from Adelaide is not surprising, it's a local industry-wide attitude.
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eddy
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Just as we have some electricity produced by natural gas as a bridging source until greener technology is available perhaps we should just build one prototype Trailerbus and whack a simple auto prime mover under it to gauge public reaction and if favorable we could easily get Victoria to build perhaps 100 electric ones that can be charged overnight when demand is low and power is very cheap.

If you have all the disruption and expense of building a stronger road for a trackless tram you may as well spend heaps putting in light rail where the Trailerbus would run quite well on existing roads as being well below the axle loads it may even have 80 psi in the tyres to be kind to both the roads and passengers.

Assuming a battery prime mover weighs 10t +Trailerbus 10t +150 passengers 10t =30t
Legal axle weights are 6t+16.5t+20t =42.5t https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/business-ind ... imits.html
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Myrtone
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Trolleybus

Post by Myrtone »

How about just bringing back trolleybuses, since modern ones are capable of off-wire manoeuvres, don't write them off completely, especially if overhead wires are quite cheap to install.

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eddy
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Re: Trolleybus

Post by eddy »

Myrtone wrote:How about just bringing back trolleybuses, since modern ones are capable of off-wire manoeuvres, don't write them off completely, especially if overhead wires are quite cheap to install.
Not a bad idea but you could only have single deck and peak power.
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1whoknows
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by 1whoknows »

They had double decker trolleybuses in Kogarah from the 1930s Eddy.
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eddy
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

1whoknows wrote:They had double decker trolleybuses in Kogarah from the 1930s Eddy.
Humble apologies
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by tonyp »

The Kogarah trolleybuses were a standard British trolleybus. British buses, trolleybuses and trams generally tended to be double-deck due to local police traffic regulations requiring them to have a small footprint. Elsewhere in the world these vehicles were and are invariably single-deck.
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eddy
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

At 3.10 in this video you can see how he has to get out to check on the blind side https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3vODK7TLEo but if he had a wireless camera on the rear he could back in with certainty.

I even believe a wireless camera checking the fog line for bikes, police or breakdowns in case it is too late to stop and you cannot swerve due to another vehicle.

For $70 it would be well worth it I think.
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eddy
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Got another email from Terry McSweeney repeating what he said on 25th Feb that NSW is going to get electric buses and the advice provided in his response remains current so there is nothing further he can add at this time.

On the positive side Austroads are looking into new ways to improve many areas of transport https://austroads.com.au/ and maybe another state that is more innovative may build a prototype Trailerbus.
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eddy
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Already buses are allowed greater mass than a truck so if you have more standing plus bigger batteries you need more wheels.
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tonyp
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by tonyp »

eddy wrote:Already buses are allowed greater mass than a truck so if you have more standing plus bigger batteries you need more wheels.
Without looking it up again, I recall there are no specific dispensations on axle loads for buses over trucks. There are limits on how many wheels you can put on a bus without messing up the interior functionality. Trams can run with a higher axle load because they have rails under the wheels, that's why trams are used for very high capacity street transport rather than buses.

Ever seen the mess that heavily-laden buses make of road surfaces? The current experimentation with electric buses has made this issue worse because of the weight of batteries you have to pile in them to get range - and because axle load is legally finite, the more batteries you load on, the less passengers you can carry. Trolley buses run rings around straight battery buses. The beauty of in-motion charging trolleybuses is that you don't have to load that many batteries on, so you can keep weight down and maximise passenger capacity.
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eddy
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

tonyp wrote:
eddy wrote:Already buses are allowed greater mass than a truck so if you have more standing plus bigger batteries you need more wheels.
Without looking it up again, I recall there are no specific dispensations on axle loads for buses over trucks. There are limits on how many wheels you can put on a bus without messing up the interior functionality. Trams can run with a higher axle load because they have rails under the wheels, that's why trams are used for very high capacity street transport rather than buses.

Ever seen the mess that heavily-laden buses make of road surfaces? The current experimentation with electric buses has made this issue worse because of the weight of batteries you have to pile in them to get range - and because axle load is legally finite, the more batteries you load on, the less passengers you can carry. Trolley buses run rings around straight battery buses. The beauty of in-motion charging trolleybuses is that you don't have to load that many batteries on, so you can keep weight down and maximise passenger capacity.

Tony for a full low floor you are allowed 11t instead of 9t and an ordinary bus is allowed 10t and they want to increase it further so surely if there is less than 9t the existing roads would last. https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/pr ... ss0706.pdf

True an ordinary bus has not the space for more wheels but a Trailerbus could provide a very comfortable ride from the northern beaches to Mascot airport via George street for those going all the way with stops every 300m if the downstairs single next stop buzzer is pushed.

Where we differ is basically you prefer fast charging and I prefer big batteries that can be charged overnight when demand is low and power is very cheap.
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eddy
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Upgraded the Trailerbus drawing to show the top seats and safety stairs. https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... top-button

The large air conditioning ducts are below the top deck windows to enable the passengers a better view.
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eddy
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Hi Tim I am back over here.

One
True the 5t battery would have to supply the a/c via the big ducts next to the seats on the top deck and also the compressor for the brakes and the rams which push the spring loaded horse float ramps down but I am sure it would be quite adequate as I drove an 8t loco all shift in the mine with no problem.

Two
I do not believe any driver could control 150 passengers so I suppose it would be a bit like a driverless train.

Three
I am thinking 10t for the prime mover 10t for the Trailerbus and 10t for the passengers with general access of 42.5t with the tyres only being 80psi to be even more gentle on the roads and riders.

Four
I do not think they would be operating on sharp bends and my experience makes me think it is worse on sealed roads than hot mix particularly if the semi is doing a U turn.
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eddy
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Tony you are so right when you talk about the fear of looking foolish and some people never learn to ride a bike, swim or dance because of this but as Benjamin Franklin said “nothing ventured nothing gained”

Perhaps the Trailerbus is a dumb idea but now the state government and indeed Australia is a bit broke at least one should be built to test public reaction rather than a few experts assuming they know what the public want.

The Sydney opera house assumed the builders labourers union would not allow them to build the underground carpark I suggested but when I asked them they said there was no problem and it was built.

Eventually batteries will become so good that the problems you outline will be overcome and many high capacity articulated vehicles will connect the surface of Sydney.
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